Unknown: Hey, folks. This is Abel James and thanks so much for joining us on the show. Today, we have a very special in person episode going back in time with our friend Joshua Wiseman.
This episode was actually recorded many years ago, but sadly, one of my computers died and the files went missing. But years later, I was able to retrieve most of the conversation
and finally edit this show together. And since the original recording of this episode,
Joshua has gone on to become one of the most renowned chefs in the world with incredible viral cooking videos and a couple of best selling cookbooks to his name. If you'd like to follow Joshua, and you'd be crazy not to, find him on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and the socials by looking for Joshua Wiseman or by visiting joshuawiseman.com.
And if you'd like to get free recipes and stay up to date about our next in person events, masterminds, and live shows in Austin and beyond,
sign up for my newsletter at abeljames.com.
That's abeljames.com
or abeljames.substack.com.
Alright. In this special in person episode, you'll hear why Joshua turned down an offer to star on a reality TV show, Joshua's secrets to making the perfect old school sourdough,
why pro cooks don't even need to taste their food, why a good white wine should leave a little tingle on the tongue, and much more. Quick note before we get to the interview. The original highest quality microphone audio files didn't make it when the computer died, but I was able to save the audio from the video cameras themselves. So apologies in advance if it's a little less clear or the audio is a little less pro than usual. But with that said, I hope you enjoy this episode with the one and only Joshua Weissman.
Unknown: So, like, the ABC show that I was on, like, if there's a plane going over, you stop everything that you're doing in the competition for the ones where crying and you're gonna stop crying. Yeah. Exactly. Oh my god. Save it for the, you know Yeah. And it's it's wacky how that works. Ours was filmed too quickly, and the budget was too low to have too much top down direction.
Hence, I was able to, like, come out of it relatively unscathed Yeah. Because they don't want that. They want everyone to go down hard.
Unknown: Some company some
film company reached out to me to be part of a show. It was about, like, young entrepreneurs.
Uh-huh. And I was like, oh, that sounds intriguing. And then I found out it was a reality show, and I was like, fuck that. No. Right. Because they're like, we wanna be there in your most intimate moments. And I'm like, oh, you mean, like, when I have a bad day and I'm crying? Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. No. That's wanna put salt in the wound, get you drunk Yeah. Until you just lose it on camera and destroy your reputation forever. Oh, I had a bad day, and I, you know,
got in an argument with my mom. And now I'm the mom hater. Or you know what I mean? Yeah. No thanks. I don't feel like And now they they own your name and brand
Yeah. For the next Fuck. That was actually part of the contract. Yeah. Yeah. The contract was like we
they it was basically
I'd have to release control of my social media. Yeah. And I was like, why would I do that? Yeah.
Why would I do that ever?
It's so messed up. That is so messed up. But it also makes good TV. It's like if they have full control over what they're doing, then it's gonna make good TV. Yeah. Because then they can control every aspect of it so it comes out the way that they know is gonna elicit some sort
of response in their audience.
Unknown: They think.
That's them assuming that they,
know
better than the people who are watching on the other end. Yeah. That's them assuming that they know
what people are gonna wanna watch. And I think if you ask
most people if if movies are getting better,
you know, big screen movies about superheroes,
all the reboots and stuff like that, I'm pretty sure most people say no. Yeah. Like, they're not making better stuff. Yeah. Reality
Unknown: TV is not getting better.
Unknown: Yeah. But they're not spending it in the right places. Right. Well, they care more about explosions.
The explosions and, like, these really crazy visual effects that,
I guess, are supposed to
capture people in the moment of this giant building being flown into space or something,
and that's that's what makes a good movie now. My dad being in the industry for so long, it's it's pretty crazy seeing movies and TV shows that he's done in comparison to what they look like now and how they're handled now is very different. And it's really not been that long. We're talking about, like, you know, anywhere between
zero and thirty five years. Yeah. Really not much time to make that much of a change. But, also, visual effects have increased so much ever since we've had all these crazy
Unknown: technological advancements with filming and cameras. And A weird thing that happened with that is, like, it crossed a threshold
where
it's almost indistinguishable
from reality or what's real. Right? Special effects. A few years ago, kind of crossed that. Not in every movie, but
in the nineties and the February,
everything looks squishy and kinda like gung. Like, you can tell that it was fake. But then they just kinda nailed it. And so if everything kinda looks real enough,
then it's not impressive anymore to see a bunch of stuff blow up. I don't think because it's like you've seen that before. Yeah. Right? Or at least I feel like I've seen that before. I don't wanna go to a movie and just have it blow up. What's weird is I'm so sensitive to
sound, I think, just because I'm like that and have been a musician for so long that
I don't usually fall asleep in front of anything,
but I fall asleep in movie theaters that if there is explosion going on, it's really loud. I fall asleep because I just, like, short out. I'm just
Unknown: like That's so funny. And I was like, this isn't worth it. Yeah. Yeah. When that's when you know you reach true badassery. I guess so. Your lullabies,
Unknown: explosions. No. It doesn't feel like that. It's more humans aren't meant to listen to explosions for two hours straight. Straight. Yeah. Right? It's like your body is just,
I don't wanna shut that off. Like, when that place burned down
and I heard all the sirens and I saw all the, you know, firemen and and the police, every time I heard sirens for the next few months after that, it was like, I heard it Yeah. In a totally different way than I ever heard it before. And you don't wanna untrain that. Right? Because it's like
something blew up over there. I would wanna
not have that tuned out. Yeah. Right? And so I think also when you're putting yourself into an environment like that, where it's like a shitty movie where everything's blowing up for hours, and then you just do that all the time, then it's kinda doing the same thing that drinking
Unknown: Coke does or eating,
Unknown: a Big Mac and fries. We're shorting out your palate. Yeah. It just desensitizes you over time. You're totally or or a bunch of disgusting porn. Yeah. Right? It's, like, hard to appreciate what's pure
if you're
ruining your your psychology Yeah. With all of this cesspool of crap. Or or even I think of mediocre stuff in kind of the same way. Right? Like, it
probably offends you when you eat a mediocre meal to some degree. Right? Like, you'll you'll eat it because you have to when you're young and you get by or whatever, you appreciate food. But at the same time, it's like, this should be this should all be better than it is. Right? Well, it's because I think that also has to do with where your standards lie. So, I mean, for you as a musician,
Unknown: let's say you there was someone that you loved in the music industry that you listened to all the time. You decided to go one of their shows and you spend a hundred dollars on a ticket and they fucking live. Yeah. It's like almost a disgrace to you because it's like you're like, well, I work this hard to do this and to be this good, and and why are you not at my standard? Do you know what I mean? Because you have this standard that you set for yourself, so you expect everybody else to be at least at your standard. Right. And if people exceed it, then that's even better. And then that's that's where people come in to be idols and people that you that you appreciate and respect because they're above that standard that you Right. Already have for yourself. So it's like you set that bar.
Only people fall below it. It's like our brains just can't comprehend why that's even happening. It is weird. I've been to a couple restaurants where I spent way too much on a meal, and everything that came out, I was not happy with whatsoever. I didn't send it back, and I didn't ask for my money back because I'm just not that kind of person.
But deep down, it was, like, super disrespectful to me because it's like, I would go out of my way to make a meal good for even if it was for one person, let alone a restaurant. And
if someone else isn't doing that, I'm just like, why are you guys even in this business? You know what I mean? Go into another business. I'm not gonna, like, shit talk who you are, but I am gonna say maybe you should look into doing a different business if you're not gonna care about it. You know? Yeah. Because going into the restaurant industry, the rate of return is not very good. No. So that's why it doesn't make sense to me because it's like you have shitty rate of return and you have shitty food.
Unknown: Why are you here? You know what I mean? Maybe they're just drunk. That's the only thing that I've been able to you know, because we've been to a few places that we like in town. And when you go to a place that's super good,
it's that way in your mind. So every time, like you just said, if you go there and it's not,
you're like, oh, crap. That changes it in my mind. Right? Because, like, if you have a crappy or just a mediocre meal at a place where it's expensive
and you're used to eating really well because that's what that thing is, and it's not that thing anymore. And the only way that I could rationalize it in my head is just like, oh, they must be drunk.
Because a lot of times drunk. It comes with the territory.
As a musician, I'm basically bar staff, or at least I was friends with bar staff and got to know a lot of cooks, caterers, chefs, and just, like, people behind the scenes and all that. And there is a lot of
fun that is had behind the scenes. And there's a lot of mystery too. And some people
are, you know, on both ends of that and get carried away. And they also are are usually trying to appeal to the drunk palate. So it's different eating when you're
totally sober,
you know, compared to when you're having a great time,
Unknown: deeply engaged in conversation, not totally paying attention to. Sure. That makes a big difference too. Sure. If I'm going to a really nice restaurant, it for everybody's experience, it should be if and when I say really nice, I mean, like, really nice. So Yeah. Uji Ujiko,
Barley Swine, really nice places or a Michelin star restaurant. It should be to the point where when you're having a conversation, the first bite of food that you take should detract you from the conversation. It should be the other way around. So if it, like, rears if it stops the conversation and someone has to literally stop and think about what they're eating right now Yeah. Then you have succeeded.
And it's really just That is a nice standard to have. It's a really just it's a nice standard, but it's also you'd be surprised how simple it is to have that moment. It doesn't have to have 500 ingredients in it, and it doesn't have to be something that takes hours and hours and hours to go. Some of the best dishes at some of the restaurants that I've worked at Yeah. You could make at home in, like, thirty minutes. You know what I mean? If you knew how to make it. Right. And so it's like,
that, I think, is a really good metaphor
for the fact that if you just care enough, if you really honestly just care enough, it'll be good. You know what I mean? Because my standard isn't really all that high
because when I'm going to a restaurant and I'm gonna eat there, a bad meal to me is a is a meal that I ask for two things, cook it properly Yeah. And season it properly. Like, put enough salt and make sure it's cooked enough. Yep. Like, not overcooked, not undercooked, right, just in between, and make sure you put enough salt. I think that that's not a lot to ask for. You know what I mean? No. It's not.
Unknown: I guess
you kinda need to taste it, though.
Unknown: Yeah. Unless you really have it down. Right? Unless you really have a system, you the chef would kinda need to taste it. Well, everything that's it. Right. Oh, you mean, like, tasting it before it goes out? Yeah. But then you couldn't taste it because it's going out? Right. That's where the talent and the repetition comes in where, like, you've done it so many times that you shouldn't even have to taste it when you season it. You know, by the way, the salt feels in your hands. That's a true professional. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. Because that that's why I'm not even close to that because I will be trying myself the whole time. And that's kind of the fun of it for me. I like improving and just kinda that's that's part of the learning, right, seeing how that goes. But that's why it's so stressful cooking for other people because it's just like, yeah. I can probably make a pretty good steak or two. Concerned about the steak. Right? Doing 10?
Yeah. Forget about it. I I can pull it off, but it'll all be, like, good maybe. It's also yeah. And it's definitely repetition. For me, I it took me a while, but I've been cooking my whole life. So I would say up until about because I've had that too. Up until about
two years ago
no. Actually, up until about a year and a half ago, I wasn't able to. And then a year and then a year and a half ago
to present, I will I've gotten to the point where, you know, when I'm seasoning something, whether it's with salt, olive oil, whatever it needs,
it's like just by feeling it in my hands, like, I could close my eyes and do it and know that it's enough because you've done it so many times Mhmm. That you just know and you also know what it looks like. So it's like visual and physical cues that you just keep in your mind. So I think people think it's this magic. Like, it's just, oh my god. The chef is just so
incredible and talented. And but in reality, it's like
it's repetition and understanding your system. So, like, when you pick up the salt and you season, it's like, okay. That looks like it has enough salt on it. And lo and behold, it had enough salt on it. Mhmm. And and so it's those visual and and physical cues that you kinda get used to. And, also, when it comes to seasoning,
depending on what it is, there's usually a point where, like, you have a threshold. So there's, like, there's never I don't think there's really such a thing as perfect seasoning. I think there's such a thing as over seasoning and there's such a thing as under seasoning, but there's, like, a little bit of threshold there. Sweet spot. We're, like, yeah. It doesn't have to have exactly 99 granules of salt. You know what I mean? Like, it gets to a point where, like, if you stay between, like, I don't know if I had to use a percentage. Like, if you stay between, like,
1.92.1%
salt, you're probably fine. And there's a lot of room there. Mhmm. So when you're seasoning something, not everything's gonna leave the kitchen seasoned the exact same way, but it will be seasoned properly. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's kinda one way to look at it and feel less stressed about it. It's like when you're seasoning a steak, it's actually kinda hard to overseason a steak. Yeah. You wanna season a steak heavily Mhmm. Because it just brings out more and more flavor. So you know that you have more
room. So it's like, I wanna look crazy on the salt there, but that's okay because it's still gonna be good. It's it's steak and then different for other things. I don't know. That's just one way to look at it so that you don't feel stressed, I think, when you're cooking for other people. But, also, when you're cooking for other people,
like I said about when it comes to just caring about what you're doing, I think that should be enough to make you feel good. It's like, well, I really care about this meal, and I care about the people that I'm cooking for. And and I care that it tastes good for them, and I feel good now because I know that I care. Yeah. And then it just kind of happens. You know what I mean? What about the the
Unknown: physical
heat level of food? Not the spiciness level, but, like, the temperature of food.
How do you feel about it, generally speaking? Like, temp you mean for safety or for the sake of cooking? For the sake of eating more than anything else. On the other end because one thing that we noticed a lot is that when we were on the road, kinda like when you get beer in in London or even liquor or in a lot of places in Europe. No ice, not cold. Oh, yeah. It's all warm. A lot of food that we got abroad was not you know, it's like you don't get a hot plate of dinner like you do in America. It's just like we prepared the food that you ordered, and here it is. And then maybe, like, ten minutes later or twenty minutes later or whatever. Well,
you know, maybe not in America,
but is it? Like, how do you feel about it? That's that's how I wondered. When I traveled
Unknown: abroad, I kinda I didn't really experience that. Maybe you just got unlucky, but if that happened over and over, I don't know. Maybe it was a cultural thing.
Where I went, that that definitely didn't happen, especially I mean, in France, if you go to in France, that should never happen because Sure. The French take it so seriously. Yeah.
I mean, the French are kinda crazy about food, but I think temperature of food is
important, but also not as important. You know, if you get a cold plate of food, then that's too far. But, also, like, I'm not really a stickler. If it's if it's
too hot, no big deal. If it's, like, just warm and it's, like, kinda cooled off a little, it's also not a big deal. Yeah. If it's cold and it's been sitting there for thirty minutes, then, yeah, that's a problem. But, I mean, for most part for the most part, it I I think temperature is less important. Yeah. To me, I wouldn't mark down a restaurant just because I got a plate of food that wasn't exactly as hot as I wanted it to be. What about, like, the realities of working in in super professional restaurants and then actually eating as a 21 year old in real life? Like, how do you marry those together
Unknown: So you in a way that makes sense? So I'm so
Unknown: the comparison of working and eating in the same restaurant or in Well, I guess yeah. Because it's it's so interesting because you could it doesn't really get better
than where you're already at. Right? You're you're already kinda at the top of where you would be preparing or eating food. It's like an expensive, very good restaurant. Right. That's as good as it gets. But at the same time, you said before that it's, like, all about ramen
right now. You're in your ramen Yeah. You're in your ramen years, which is totally true. It's like when I was your age, I was still kinda living off of tuna fish and spaghetti and whatever I could scrounge up from, like, my parents' cupboard or whatever. You know? Yeah.
Unknown: And, those are different things. Yeah. Well, it's actually brought on a lot of
inspiration for me for my recipes
and content that I wanna produce Yeah. Because,
I've actually made a bunch of really fancy meals that I think a restaurant could totally sell for, like, $40 a pop out of stuff that because I had no money that week. Yeah. I I ended up making, like, a five star meal out of stuff that cost me $5.
Yeah. And so it ended up making me think, okay. Well, maybe I can make this into, like, a series or something and get people to make fancy food for $5 and Yeah. Blow people's mind. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And kinda, like, change the perspective of how people view food Right. Of, like, this mysterious thing and be like, oh, it's really that. Because I think it's really one of those things because there's a lot of things in that happen in life. I feel like people think because they don't know anything about it, they assume that it's difficult and mysterious. Yeah. But when you really break open the shell and look at it, you're like, oh, this is actually really fucking simple. And, oh, by the way, cooking is in our DNA. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we
as a species,
are literally meant to cook. You know what I mean? You know? Because I'm sure you already know this, but I'll repeat it anyway. It's like
cooking
increasing
the ability for us to absorb nutrients in whatever we're eating. You know what I mean? If we eat something raw, we're not gonna absorb as many nutrients as if it were cooked. Cooked. And,
like, especially increasing
the flavor of it and making it taste better, so we eat more of it and we ingest more calories. So from a from a biological standpoint,
if we're not cooking, we're dying. Yeah. Do you you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's a little bit scary
looking at society kinda moving towards and I understand people are busy, and we're becoming more and more busy, and it's gotten to the point where cooking is is less important because we gotta pay the bills. Yeah. But, you know, the irony of it all is if we lose that, then we're losing literally a piece of what makes us human. Yes. Yeah. I think that's that's true.
Unknown: It's not different from what happened in the eighties, I think, with, like,
tanning beds.
Right? Yeah. Which is, like, faking a real thing and ab shocking
belts.
Unknown: Yeah. And and even the thigh master because that's so The thigh master. It's it's so overly reductive, right, that it's hilarious now, but we're doing the same thing. It's like people are shocking themselves and saying it's like, this is way better than exercise.
Unknown: And, you know great. That was great. Sound like go point and eat. Yeah.
Unknown: Tricking Soylent or other shit like that and be like, this is way better than eating.
And, no, it's not. Yeah. There are times when you need to get by with less than ideal food, I think. Sure. Of course. And and it's nice to have MREs or something that that you have prepared
Unknown: for emergencies or or the equivalent of what Cliff Bar was supposed to be or something. Right? But And I'm not claiming to be a saint or anything. You know? There have been plenty of times where I'll get home, like, I don't have time to cook. I'm gonna go somewhere else to go get something to eat. And, you know, I might go to the Chinese restaurant down the street, and I'm not gonna feel bad about it. It's just I think people just don't cook. Yeah. There's a difference between, like,
picking your battles, and I think people just there is no battle. It's just they're just not cooking because they don't know how because it's too hard. Yep.
It's not. Yeah.
Unknown: It's getting easier, actually, I think, because now you can find better ingredients in places that didn't used to happen. Yeah. Right?
But at the same time,
Unknown: do you think the bubble is getting bigger or smaller?
It's a weird time. Right? Like, the the people who are getting healthier and the people who are not. I think I think it's transverse.
Unknown: I totally think it's transverse as, like
actually, no. I think the bubble of the health community is getting smaller, and the bubble of the people who are don't know anything
is getting bigger because
it's like this small bubble of community of people who are who are healthy and, like, are obsessed about health and fitness, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
They know, like, too much for their own good in a way. Do you know what I mean? It's like It's true. It's not just that they know things. They know so much that now we're entering a battle with orthorexia, body dysmorphia, and now they've gotten to a point where their healthy eating has turned into something unhealthy Yep. Because they literally know too much. And then on the other side, there's people who almost know so little that they just don't even wanna spend the time to learn it so that they just pretend that they live in this world where they're like, well, I just don't know. Yeah. And then but but then they'll go It is what it is. It is what it is, but they have all these other things that they care about in life. And in reality, this person's
is probably a very smart intelligent person, but they're choosing to be
ignorant of that. Yeah. Yeah. That's where it is. And, yeah, they're they're literally choosing to be ignorant because it is scary, because there's so much information, because there's so much dogma
and
people yelling at each other, and it's less about
I mean, I think if we just simplified it down and boiled it down to, like, look. Just fucking cook your food. Yeah. Just go to the store, pick something up that wasn't pre made. Like, don't get anything. Don't get stocked with pre made. Even if it's healthy, I don't care. Don't get it pre made. Just get some fucking raw vegetables. Get some, if you do starches, get some raw starches, something that has not been cooked yet. No parboiled shit. Nothing no.
And just take a day to go into your kitchen and figure it out. I don't care if you know how to cook. I don't care because that's a BS excuse. Because I guarantee you if I kicked your ass out into a forest, but I gave you a full kitchen, you'll figure out how to cook. You will. You'll figure it out. And so, I mean, the reality of it is, like, I think if people just went and did it, they would find out that it really isn't such a secret. And it's actually kinda fun, and it's extremely therapeutic. Yeah. Extremely therapeutic. And I think just one if more people had just one moment like that, it would literally change their life. Yeah. I think you're right. And I think people would have more interest in cooking, and then it would get to a point where people can
start to to venture out and just not even need a cookbook or a recipe. They're just like, I wanna cook chicken tonight, and I know that off of all the recipes that I've tried, on average, in the oven, whenever I you know, I'm roasting a whole chicken, it takes about an hour to an hour and a half at, you know, 400 degrees. I Mhmm. I can remember that, and I'll do it. And then they do it, and then they suddenly learn, oh my god. You also don't need a recipe when you do it. And then it just compounds and compounds and compounds and Yeah. It does.
Collective knowledge. And, you know, with access to the Internet, people can figure out how to take apart and put a computer back together, but they can't figure out how to put a piece of chicken in a pan.
Unknown: And kids
are competing on cooking shows. They can make gourmet meals. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Adults who say, I can't cook. Come on. Yeah. And you have mass was it MasterChef
Unknown: Junior?
Unknown: Right. Yeah. Although, there were a ton of shows and spin offs. Is there more than one? I believe there's one.
Unknown: Hell's Kitchen kids or some I don't know. There there were a bunch. Yeah.
I remember because I was looking for one in particular, and I found, like, eight. And then then I forgot which one I was looking for. I'm like, holy crap. Look at all these Right. Shows.
Unknown: God, we don't need all those shows. But
Unknown: whenever I get truly bummed out about something, I try to remember that
dealing with humans is really just apes with noise coming out of their heads.
Unknown: It's no different than Well, it's
Unknown: it's like a it's like a battle between the two almost. Yeah. It is. Because it it is both at the same time. Like, if we were out in the woods and that's why we go on these crazy trips every once in a while because it's like you're in animal mode. And when you're in animal mode, then most of the people that you see
Unknown: are friends or fast enemies. Yeah. You know? And you've gotta decide. That's a really interesting point. I never thought of it like that. Yeah.
Unknown: But that's what life is like too. Yeah.
Unknown: It really is. Yeah.
Unknown: Fast enemies. Just you have to deal with a lot more of those interactions, and it's I can tell why people would just be like, I give you a
it is what it is because at some point, it's too much for us to all Yeah. Deal with and be hooked into. Yeah. And you have to compartmentalize.
Unknown: Otherwise, you're gonna overwhelm yourself. Yeah. And I and I guess my whole mission and point here is is really just because I want
I think if we could just get people to realize to not be so scared of it, then it wouldn't be as stressful as they think it is. Yeah. That's the only reason that they're putting a wall up is because they think it's stressful. Right. But it doesn't have to be. Right. Because there are things that are stressful that people do put walls up about, you know, income, paying bills, etcetera. That, I can understand.
But I think because of that, it's, like, sort of manufactured us to as soon as we see something that could be stressful that we that we have the ability to avoid, we sure as fuck will avoid it because it makes sense Yeah. Because it's energy saving. Right. And you're you're gonna feel happier in general. So why not? So it's kinda like one of those
paradoxes where, like, the only way to fix it is if they do it, but they won't do it. So we're seeing the other one tomorrow. You're looking fine. I think yours is kind of peachy. Yeah. It it ended up being a rose by accident.
Unknown: This actually is an orange
Unknown: wine, he said, which is basically where they usually white wine is without the skins, but this is one where they put the skins in for a short period of time, I think. So it gives it a little
Unknown: it's a different type of flavor. It's almost champagney.
Unknown: Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's nice and sweet and bright. Almost a little bit, by the way, too. Mhmm. Yeah. It's definitely it's an action going. Yeah. Definitely from probably from the fermentation
in there. I feel like a good white wine should have a little bit of, like, tingle on the tongue. You know what I mean? It should. Yeah.
Because it's just indication that they actually took time to ferment it properly. Yeah.
My sourdough starter.
That was so good, by the way. Did you like it? Oh, thank god. He's so glad he liked it. We ate it with my parents. Was it good? Good. They everyone just was yeah. Thank you. The best I've ever had. Thank you. Who knew that bread was so complicated? I thought it was just, like, add some fucking yeast to it, mix it up, let it rise. Yeah. Shape it, put it in the oven. It's not Well, that's what the bread machine companies
Unknown: told you it was.
Unknown: Right. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. Well, I mean, the way that they make bread is is is just it's not bread. It's literally not, by definition, not bread. Right. I mean, remind me why that is. It's because they use kind of a commercial yeast, which does a different thing. Right? And it's a different few steps and Yeah. There's a lot of things. I mean, yeast,
to be honest, bread is just
supposed to be naturally leavened.
Adding commercial yeast kinda takes away from the fact that it's I I mean, I guess, technically, it's
still bread
Unknown: by specific definition, but I think most The statement is no match. It's still bread.
Unknown: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean,
because you can have breads that are not naturally leavened, but Yeah. But if you look at history and you look at the way that we've we've made food, really,
there's not been a lot of changes other than the fact that, like, bread is not being risen naturally. Because Mhmm. If you think about it, when bread was first created, we wouldn't be rising it with
commercial yeast. If you want rise, you're gonna have to create life by making some sort of sourdough starter. No matter what kind of bread it is, whether it's a sourdough crusty loaf of bread or it's a pita bread or it's,
whatever, naan, whatever, you name it. Yeah. Because that's technically a bread. Any bread that needs leavening, you gotta have some sort
of live culture to do it. I mean, we still do it with yogurt. You know? We still use cultures to to ferment yogurt, so why are we not doing it with bread? But I think the most important thing of all,
commercial yeast aside, because that's really just more of a purist
mindset.
But commercial yeast aside,
my bread has three ingredients. It has flour, water, and salt in it. That is it. The only other ingredients that are in it are the multiple cultures of bacteria that I've cultivated in my my starter. But in order to make my starter, all I need is water and flour. That's it. Yeah. Which is kind of beautiful in a way that you can create life with just flour and water. Yeah. But that's a different story. The the Did you indoctrinate it though? Fruit or anything like that? Did you No. No. You don't yeah. You don't really need to. Fruit is it's kinda funny because, people think that if you add fruit, it'll it'll increase the the intensity of your ferment,
which, you know, I've read a lot of contradicting information. And in my experience, it seems like,
yeah, it it gives it extra food, but it doesn't necessarily increase the intensity because all that's gonna happen is the yeast is gonna consume it, and it's gone. People think that it, like, pushes their ferment further, but it really my experience has not. I've had the same results with fruit and without fruit. But you can just do flour and water and just keep
refreshing it, and then eventually, you're gonna have a starter. It's that simple. Yeah. You know? You the only thing is it's like taking care of a child in a way you you have to feed it. I feed mine two to three times a day Wow. Because it's so vigorous that it ferments so fast. Is that
just the lost climate, do you think? Is it because it just works better than me? I think it's a combination of the climate, and it's also temperatures is is a big thing, but it's also my inoculation percentage is really high. Okay. So, like, however much
starter you leave in the bottom when you refresh it because, you know, I'm sure you already know this, but, like, you in order to feed a starter, you take your your starter that's already been fully matured and everything, and it's it's done its rise, and now it's fallen because the gluten structure has been completely decomposed. Yeah. You throw away a certain percent percentage of it. So I leave about 20 to 25% in there, giving away my trade secrets right now. It's not really a trade secret. 20 to 25%
of the starter left, that is your inoculation percentage. Yeah. That's pretty high. Some people drop it to, like, 10%.
So you can control your the speed of your ferment by really two main
things, temperature or inoculation percentage. Yeah. Temperature if my apartment was 85 degrees, it would ferment pretty damn fast.
But because of climate control in apartments and houses,
temperature outside isn't as effective
to the final
result as you would think. The only thing that is is the humidity. But, yeah, I mean, it's really just my inoculation percentage, I think. And the fact that my ferment has gotten so intense that it needs that
because I'm baking so often that there's even more yeast being released in the air. And
if I didn't bake as often, it would probably it's this is really weird. There's I can go on and on about this. There's so many variables that come in into place. You know, it's not just temperature. It's not just inoculation percentage. It's room temperature, dough temperature, water temperature, flour temperature. I mean, there's
multiple variables to each variable. So it's like a variables within variables, within variables, which is why some bakers literally spend their whole life trying to get the perfect loaf. Mhmm. They spend their entire life trying to get the perfect loaf, and some of them never get it. So it's like Well, there is that much nuance.
Oh, yeah. I mean, there is that. And and I mean, it gets to a point where, like, maybe the obsession is a little too much where it's like, alright. This is pretty close. There's not really such thing as perfection. Well, I want it to be a little more sour. Alright. Well We're humans. We're meant to do that. Yeah. And we're we're meant but at the same time, I think when we first started trying to make sourdoughs, we, like, had a good starter for a while, and then we just accidentally baked the whole thing. Oh, no. Paying attention. Just like,
Unknown: just all in there. Yeah.
Unknown: Yeah. But I think we, like, took a bite and we were like, wait a sec.
Oh, Yeah. That sucks. That stuff like that just happens. You know? Like, when we first started making kombucha,
some turned out really great and then, you know, like, a whole batch for no reason. Like, we did everything right, but for no particular reason.
One was infested by,
I think
you could see the worms squiggling around, like, from the fruit flies.
Somehow, they got in there and laid eggs. It was weird. Did you have netting over it or something? Or Yeah. We had I don't remember exactly what the details were, but maybe it was, like, cotton, but there was a little break in the cotton. Yeah. That makes sense. Like, and the one next week got molds. Yeah. So you just you learn, but there
it feels like you got beat. Yeah. And it's a tough loss.
Yeah. And the losses that's what makes it hard is the losses happen at the beginning. You feel the worst about them at the at at the beginning because I think,
you almost feel when you're getting started with something like,
oh, crap. My kombucha didn't work out.
I'm a bad person now. So I I just can't handle making kombucha, or I can't handle making sourdough. You know? And so, like, what's the point in learning to cook? I can't I can't cook because the last time I cooked, someone who I made macaroni and cheese for him, like Yeah. But that's what it really is. They, like, follow it back to that emotional thing. Yeah. What do you think the secret is to unhooking that to get people to just get ahold of themselves and not care? I mean, well, if you I mean, if you think about that scenario just in it in itself,
Unknown: it's the same thing of people spiraling down in any other situation. It's kind of like a baby kicking and screaming where you're like,
oh, well, I didn't get that job, and,
my my wife is mad at me, and, oh, this this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong. And then, like, you were like, well, why me? But it's like the same thing in the kitchen. It's like you gotta identify that first and foremost that you're making excuses.
And then
once you realize that you're making excuses
and actually, you know,
get out of your own way, I think the only way to really, really, honestly, the only way to break the cycle is just to do it just once. Just once. Just once. Just do it and actually don't do it like, oh, I'm doing this because I have to. Just do it and, like, don't be a baby about it. Because I I mean, I've gotten to the point where I don't really wanna be nice about it anymore because I think people kinda need need a little bit of, like, look. Stop being a jackass
and just do it just once and care about it. And try and actually be in the moment for a second. And I think you'll realize you'll have it's it's like you'll have, like, an epiphany where you're just like, oh, this isn't so bad. And then just do it, like, once a week.
You know what I mean? Try and make a habit of doing it once a week, and then you'll it it'll get to a point where, like, you don't even have to try. You're gonna want to. I guarantee you that people are gonna get to the point where they're gonna want to. Because it like I said, it's in our DNA.
And I and just like we're addicted to our cell phones, just like we're addicted to so many things in our lives, you're gonna have a massive I mean, psychologically speaking,
physiologically speaking, when you cook something and you you taste it, you're gonna have a physiological response, which is a massive rush of dopamine in the brain, which is like you're you're, a, you're patting yourself on the back for taking the time to cook. B, it actually tastes pretty damn good or it's okay, and I'm actually happy that I did this. And then you're having all this this positive reinforcement that's happening in your brain that you're not even aware of, and then and then that just, like, builds and builds and builds, and it becomes a dopamine cycle where when you're lacking it, you're gonna be like, oh, man. I really wanna cook tonight. I haven't cooked in a while. I really wanna cook tonight. And once you've hit that point, I don't even think anything else matters. I don't care if you cook every single day. I don't care if you're cooking five star meals. It's just to me, it means a lot just that you're thinking about it. Yeah. And that's all that matters. You know what I mean? Because I think there's so many extremes, and everybody wants to be extreme extreme about everything. The diet industry, the fitness industry, the cooking, or the the restaurant industry. Oh my god. The restaurant industry is like the restaurant industry gets away with things that if any other boss did that to you, HR would be all over your ass. Yeah. So everybody likes extremes, but I think
when it comes to cooking, I think people need to start pulling their hands back and realizing that it doesn't need to be an extreme. And as soon as it's not, people will naturally fall where they need to be, and it doesn't have to be regimented. It doesn't you know? Otherwise, people will will never wanna do it, and then it just becomes
a cycle of making yourself feel bad
to do something. And that's not how I don't want people to to cook because they feel bad about it. I want people to cook because they wanna cook. You know? Yeah. Yeah. You kinda have to, like you said, compartmentalize
Unknown: a little bit on that. Yeah. You have to realize that we all go through different phases. Yeah. Absolutely. Gonna be playing high school football for him. Yeah. Exactly. It's just not gonna work out for you. Right. Like, for anyone in general. And at the same time, you're not always gonna be interested in learning how to do French cooking or how to, like, learn
how to do a particular type of programming or or plug in on the inner share of social media platform. We all have these bursts of inspiration.
And you said it before it's like,
if you're hungry and you're in the woods and you have ingredients
and something to cook them with, you will learn how to cook. Yeah. You'll figure it out. Fast, and you also won't forget how to cook it. Yeah. And that's why it's so important to, make it hard on ourselves sometimes, I think, like you did
when you had already experienced
so much success in kind of, like, the independent blogging community
and published your your own cookbook also.
And you're just like, now I can tell I don't know enough. I need to get abused a little bit, but I need to
get out on it. And and that's what we've been doing for how long now?
Unknown: So I've been doing the restaurant thing for roughly a year now. So I'm still pretty new to it. I'm still you know, I mean, like, getting my ass kicked less, which shows that I'm improving, but also
I don't feel finished with it yet. Yeah. It's it's funny. It's kinda like being
I I went into the restaurant industry just because
two things. A, I wanted to see if I could survive there,
and I wanted that
assurance, and I wanted to know that I could survive there. And
I felt like, a, I needed an ass kicking, and I needed to learn more. And so that that that's really the whole reason so that I can pursue because my main goal is to teach people and and get people excited about cooking and and to be a source of inspiration for people to cook and, you know, recipe production, etcetera. And I wanna grow like that, but I think the best way for me to grow like that is to make sure that I I feel comfortable within myself and my capabilities because having doing you know, been doing this at such a young age, I feel like I have more experience within
social media, food photography Yeah. And writing than I do actually it's getting to the point where, like, it's less about cooking almost. Right. And I don't like that. Was more about documenting. Yeah. Because that's what we have to do. Being a businessman and wearing my suit and then you know what I mean? And, like, make sure that you're creating good relationships and make sure that you're keeping those relationships
cold or hot and not cold. You know what I mean? And it and it got to the point where, like, I felt very robotic about it. Yeah. And it's like, this should be about the food. Fast enough jokes. Yeah. I want it to be about food. I want it to be about something that's inspirational, makes people happy. And I know it sounds That's rare. That should not be rare, but that is super rare. So thank you for that. Yeah. Well, no. I'm Seriously. I mean, I'm very,
my mom's like this too. I'm Mhmm. I was raised around a lot of women, and my mom is very much of a feeling person. And so, like,
if my feelings aren't in line with it, then I I just can't do it. Right. You know? And so I don't want that to fall away from me just because it's becoming so business oriented. And, of course, that's a part of it now. You know, I've learned to do to It always would have been anyway. It has to be I never liked it. I never liked the business part. I I could be good at it, but it's gross. It sucks.
Unknown: Mhmm. I don't like it. Yeah. That's how I deal, and I have to deal with that. But Sure. You get over it, and then you just kind of, once again, compartmentalize
Yeah. Exactly. And for what it is. And then I think you just you you do the math.
Unknown: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well The the When I moved away from home, I did the math alright. I I sure did
right out of my bank account. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I I learned some pretty fast lessons moving out too, which, you know, I lost a ton of money. And I think in a way,
I mean, maybe maybe I'm just saying this to make myself feel better about it, but, also, I I do think that I it it needed to happen. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have learned. Yeah. Because for a long time and I and I think this is the best way to prove
myself that I really that really is more about caring about what people are doing with food than it is about the money. Yeah. Because I really didn't spend a lot of time monetizing myself. Right. And so when I moved there, I learned really quickly that I did not have enough income Yeah. From my stuff
to keep myself afloat based off of I mean, procuring recipes with ingredients from Whole Foods all the time. And I I guarantee you, I spend more money than most people on food just because I'm always testing with it. Yeah. And so I learned very quickly that it was like, oh, shit. I I gotta pay attention to the business side of this.
Otherwise, it would have never came up. You know?
But, yeah, it it's definitely
I think
food for people
is something that's very sacred no matter how they eat. You know, even if they eat fast food all the time, it's still important to them because, I mean,
you needed to live. But also
psychologically, there's an emotional connection to food no matter what, how you eat. Deep, deep, deep. So it's hard to change people.
And so that's why I'm not really looking to change people. I'm just looking to, like, add an element to their life. So I'm not asking people to change. I'm asking people to add an element to their life and see how it does. Yeah. And most people that do that, I think, will change by themselves. I don't even need to ask people to change because it's it's just a like something clicks. Yeah. It's just exactly. It's just like we have this piece of our brains that is
asleep, and then as soon as you start cooking and that thing can turns on, you're like, oh, shit. I care about this. Right. Fuck. I didn't know that. You know? And and it's kinda it's kinda cool how that because that happened for me. You know? I've cooked my whole life,
and so it's a part of my life. So it's hard for me to be like, oh, look at me. But I'll share one experience that I had was when I moved away from home in addition to finances being an issue.
I mean, I was cooking significantly less. I was cooking probably 70% less than I ever had ever. So if I don't want people to think that, like, I've never faced a moment where I you know, well, this kid's been cooking his whole life, so he doesn't know how busy I am. Well, when I moved out of my parents' house and I was living here and I continued doing what I was doing, I lost money so fast that I was like, oh,
where's rent? You know? Yeah. And then I I mean, it's good that it happened to me at 21, but or at the time, 20. And so I went through and still kinda am going through where I have to, like, watch what I'm buying, watch what I'm eating, and sometimes I gotta go and, like, get something super cheap that I don't wanna buy and I don't wanna eat, but I gotta do it because where is the money gonna come from? You know what I mean? And I didn't cook it. Or I've I need to spend more time making money this month, so I don't have time to cook, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I've been through that, and I've done that. And I and so I understand where people are coming from, but I still was able to find time to cook despite all that. And so that's why I think that I know that there are people, like, most people. And by most people, I mean, probably everybody has time to cook. Right. You know? Like, if the president has time to work out, I feel like you should have time to cook. And The Rock cooks, and he's
pretty pretty busy, dude.
Unknown: Yeah. Because it's a part of being human.
And because if you lose that, then you just what do you have? What's the point? Yeah. Imagine if you if you don't have time to cook because you're struggling so hard to find it. Yeah. Okay. So
if you do reach all of your goals and and suddenly you're not struggling with money anymore, what are you gonna do if you don't need to do anything with your time? Yeah. Because
if you don't cook then,
then you'll be really depressed. Yeah. Because, like, you won't be able to afford
to worry about how little money you have because you have a bunch, so you can't worry about that anymore. And that's one of the interesting things that happens to humans is they keep, like, getting the things that they want. It's just like Yeah. I thought I wanted that. Yeah. Now I'm just gonna go ahead and worry about this thing instead. Yeah. What and, I mean, being busy also, it's it kinda stays the same because it I mean, the more money you make, the more busy you're gonna be because you need to keep up the the income that you have. So if you're
Unknown: poor or or you're going through struggle and you need to pay the bills and you're working your ass off to do it, and I know a lot of people are doing that and are going through that, if you can't find time to cook in those moments, then you will never find time. Right. Because I guarantee you when you're making more money after going through those experience, you're, why would you want oh, I need a break. Well, oh, wait. Let me think back to a year ago when I was really struggling. I don't want that again. Let me work harder. Right. You know what I mean? It's it's like you have this empty shell, which is the dough, and you are literally
breathing life into it. Yeah. You are literally breathing life into it. And the other thing is and I I I this is not a direct you can't quote me on this. This is actually from Michael Pollan on,
I don't know if you saw saw the Netflix,
Cooked. Amazing. So good. Air was my favorite one about when he was talking about bread. And he said something along the lines that, like,
it's it's a perfect staple to represent
how badly we need food in in a primal sense, you know, like fighting for your life food. Bread is such a perfect thing for that because you're taking something
that is this much, and you're making more out of it with nothing. Yeah. With nothing. Because with the leavening, you're taking when I'm starting out my bread, the dough there's about this much dough. If I were to roll in a ball, it'd be about this much. Your loaf was about this big. Right? It makes two.
Unknown: Wow. How much does it cost you, would you say?
Unknown: Per per,
two loaves, I would say
probably, like, 50¢ a loaf.
Unknown: Almost nothing. So if you were to buy that loaf
I could sell it. If it was, like, this big. Right? I could sell it for, like, $6 probably.
I bet you could sell it for $20 at some farmer's farm. Oh, yeah. They probably would. But I wouldn't do that, though, because It's not well, not I'm I'm not saying you, but here's what we You could. Oh, absolutely. Say that they don't have time to cook. They don't have money to cook. It's like you can get a like, if you were to get that at a restaurant, you would get two slices of it on an egg sandwich
Unknown: for, like, $15. Yeah. And the eggs cost them, like, 10¢. Exactly. They're making a well, yeah.
Unknown: Absolutely. You see where I'm getting it. Yeah. Like, you you you take this 50¢ and then a little bit of your raw talent,
or skill that you've built up over time because you've learned how to do this. You take that 50¢ and all of a sudden not like you're gonna it's like start a bread business necessarily. Right. Necessarily thought about it. But you don't need to buy bread now. Yeah. And neither do do your family or friends. And all of a sudden, you're the person who is, like, giving
giving that to the people around you. And I remember
when I was a kid, when someone, like, first explained
what bartering was to me. I think it was around the same time that I figured out what money was.
And,
money is just like this cold hard cash. Right? You exchange where it's like
and they told me, but what it used to be back in the day is, you know, farmer John would give his wheel of cheese.
Dear farmer, Eric, can you even take the bread? And it's like that exchange of
craftsmanship
and and humanity Yep.
Is a powerful thing that we've kinda lost. Right? Oh my god. Yeah. Food
like, money doesn't really mean anything. It it's so weird because now you go to Farmer's Market and the one in Austin anyway. It's like you can slide your credit card if you want to, and it's weird Yeah. To do that. I mean, we have we have one place in Austin or a couple places in Austin that make pretty good bread. Yeah. Easy Tiger,
Unknown: all the most of their bread is naturally leavened. So that's I think that's really respectable, but the crazy thing is when people swipe their credit card, like you said, and they're holding this this thing in their hand, this bread Yeah. It's like
they have no idea
what they're holding in their hands. You know what I mean? They have no idea because this thing literally had a lifespan
in the sense of, like, there there were so many things that happened that led up to this. Like, the bread that I gave you,
I mean, I could have been,
that
one time I made bread for somebody, and I I this actually this wasn't your loaf, but this was a separate loaf. And I had a horrible day that day, but I really wanted to get them their bread. And I don't remember what happened, but I was, like, in terrible mood, and then, like, something set me off, and I just started crying. But I kept making the bread. And and when I gave them the bread, I immediately thought of that moment, and I was like, they have no idea
what I went through while I was making this. And I feel like in a way that almost affects the complexity of flavor, and it was the best best loaf that I'd ever produced, which is the crazy thing. And I was, like, in a in a state of emotional distress while I was making it. And so it's like there's so much, like,
energy that went into that for me and energy that went into that from the starter that I created that's been alive for a year and a half. And so many events have happened around it to make that, and it's so it's like this beautiful complexity of things that have happened that have that has led up to this one Yeah. Loaf of bread.
And that's why it's such a beautiful
representation of what food is supposed to be because it's something that takes so much time and that when you give it to somebody, they're completely unaware
of what it is. But the crazy thing is, like you said, you know, you enjoyed it so much. It's like they love every second of eating it, and they don't it's it's almost like you don't even understand why it's so good. Right. But then when I explain everything that happened that led up to it, then suddenly, it's almost less about the ingredients. Yeah. And it's less about me. It's just more about the food and what what has led up to make what it is. Totally. Well,
Unknown: because food
used to come with a story.
It was prepared by people who you knew, people in your tribe, I would assume, or your family in most cases. Right? And even now,
when we do Thanksgiving or when we have in the past, a lot of my family were
farmers or my my grandfather
was an organic farmer. And so, like, they all worked on the farm, and a lot of them
learned how to do various things. If they didn't start their own farm, at some point, they just kinda will bring like, uncle Dean brings
mushrooms that he learned how to grow up Oh, it's awesome. That, you know, he inoculated
years ago that are paying off big time.
You know, everyone brings their own time, like, the huckleberry and and and the
that they hand gather and Sure. Dan's blueberry. Right. And That's awesome. Brother Mark learned he is an organic farm, learned how to on other organic farms because he was kind of,
they call it interning now, but that's not what they used to call it. Right? It's like it's like a trade. It's a trade, and you're you're learning from different tradespeople and and learning how to do different things. And he literally
had a wheel of cheese.
It looked so big. He made it. That he made. Yeah. Oh my god. Thinking of flushable cheese for a long time
and just had so it was something that
I could tell when he showed it to me. He was proud, like, he was so over it. Like, he has such
a a glut of cheese
that he's over
He's over cheese. Probably, like, over bread to some degree. Yeah. If you've had enough, like, I don't wanna eat this anymore. I wanna share this with people. Exactly. And that's the thing I don't really even so special because then it's like
the craftsmanship
and the the art and the spirit and and everything that went into
that that trade and making it that good
is the story
that made it so special when we ate your bread that you gave us with my family.
Right? It's like,
this is what it's about. This is what it's supposed to be about the whole time because what what we all really want, I think, is meaning in our lives.
And if you have meaning in your meals,
then that that's actually kind of a a shortcut. Yeah. Because when we had Thanksgiving,
when my brother
brought the turkey that that we had literally met,
that he had killed
and,
you know,
drained all the blood out Yeah. Plucked all of the feathers off of it and all of this. It's It's like when he puts that on the table, and by the way, he also cooked it for us, it's like, how different is that? Oh my god. Water ball. Right. More like fried chicken or a pizza. Yeah. It has a story. It's
it
it has a story, but I think it like,
we know what the placebo effect is, and we're like, oh, the placebo effect is just like magic or something. And we don't know why it works, but when you take a sugar pill, thirty percent of the time, it does whatever
you think it will. And I think that maybe that's the way to hook that up and make it work for
you because we all wanna believe that
this matters. Right. When you eat
Unknown: a bucket of fried chicken, you don't believe it. Oh my god. No. Well, it's also like the mindless eating thing. Remember how I was talking about earlier,
if it detracts you from the conversation, it's good. Yeah. So,
I've had this happen with a couple of my friends, and that's a big reason why I like to share food with people. But it's like whenever you're eating a bucket of fried chicken, you're just eating. Like, you're not even paying attention. Yeah. You might be like, oh, this tastes good, but, like, you're watching your Netflix show Game of Thrones and just Yeah. Shoveling and shoveling and shoveling. And, like, you really to be honest, you don't really care about that. If that fucking fried chicken fell out of the window, you wouldn't give a shit. Yeah. But
everybody has this no matter
how fancy, rich, poor you are. And it's Everybody has this, and it gets to a point where, like, you will have something
that you do if if it stops you in your tracks and you are thinking about it,
that that's it. You know what I mean? That's that moment
that, that people don't don't have anymore because they're not having food that is making them stop and think about it. It's different than stopping and thinking, oh, this is so good. It should actually in in evokes some sort of mental physiological
response from you. It should. And it it there there is a way to do that, you know, and bread is a great great way to do it. I also think it's about people wanting to be understood.
I want to be understood, and I want other people to experience because I'm so passionate about food, and I love food so much that when I eat something, it's like, fuck.
I love this so much. I want other people to feel what I'm feeling. How am I gonna get the them to feel this? Oh, I'll just make it for them, and maybe they'll have the same effect. And every single fucking time, I make it for them the same way that I made it for myself that's that made me feel like that. And then I see get to see someone else or hear about someone else
having the same experience that I did. It's mission accomplished. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So, like, baking the bread for you guys and having you guys share it and hearing that you guys loved it so much is like that there we go. That's it. That's all I wanted. That's all that I wanted was for you to have the experience that I did, and that's the whole point.
And so it's like a it's a really cool cultural thing that happens too. It is. You know what's so weird about that too is that, like
Unknown: and I think my wife, Allison, would agree
that if someone came to us with, like, a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars,
that $1.50
cent
loaf of bread meant so much more
than anything like that ever could because
it, like, locks it into place. It makes that thing click. Right. Right? Where in in the same way that, like, when my brother Mark brought
his turkey
that we've had to Thanksgiving,
you're, like,
feeling so many things at the same time. You're like, thank you? What does this mean? Oh my god. That was just alive.
It's dead now.
Smells delicious. I think I'm gonna eat it. But I also feel kind of bad. I feel bad.
Like, thank you. I am not gonna eat too much. You're not gonna do, like, the gluttonous paleo thing Yeah. If you have met your turkey or chicken. Yeah. That's a really great point. Same thing with like, I recorded some podcasts
a few years ago with the cows, like, sitting behind me who we we became friends with at my parents' place in in New Hampshire who we later ate.
Unknown: Oh my god. That's intense.
Unknown: Burgers, liver. I think we might have eaten eaten the tongue of those ones, but that was the plan all along. It was it sounds super dark. Right? But how many people
are listening to me say this right now who feel weird ate meat today? Yeah. That's exactly Yeah. What happened. Exactly. Probably way worse
because those cows and those chickens
were raised in horrible, disgusting conditions that you would never wish upon anything
Unknown: that has a life. Yeah. Right? And people like to put up the blinds like, oh, no. I I well, I don't see it, so it's not happening. We're conditioned to, and it's easy. Yeah. We want to because it is hard. Yeah. Well, you gotta protect yourself a little bit. You gotta protect your mental health. But it it also
Unknown: with the bread that you gave to us, it's like, wow. This is so much. Again, it's too much for us, but it's going to expire in
a few hours. Right? Like, it's it's degrading.
It's a lie, but it's degrading.
So we need to share this
Unknown: as quickly as possible with this There's some urgency to it. Yeah.
And food isn't built like that anymore either. And so there were, like, so many lessons that I learned from that loaf of bread. I just wanna thank you for that. No. Of course. Yeah. It makes me so happy to to hear that you guys enjoyed it so much that it had that effect on you because that's that really is the goal. And, I mean,
it's funny because, like you said, the point that you made about being over it, totally over bread Mhmm. I'd I'd almost never make it for myself anymore. Right. It's funny. I do I didn't even think about that. It just hit me that I almost never make it for myself anymore.
I make it often probably two or three times a week, but
99.99%
of the time that I'm making it, I'm making it for other people. Right. And if it's gonna be at my house and I'm eating it, I'm just doing it because my girlfriend wants something. Yeah. Or, you know, or my roommate wants something. You know what I mean? But it's funny because I believe all these things, but every single day, I learn something more about it's just like the it's almost like it just keeps getting deeper and deeper and deeper to the point where it's like like politics of food don't matter. You know what I mean? The physiology of food doesn't matter. It's like you realize that there's this, like, deep rooted emotional, almost spiritual connection
to food
that I think
is so deeply ingrained in everybody that everybody has it. It's just that it's kinda, like, covered up by all the physiological bullshit that people
Unknown: have created. Oh, we can make this as surface y as we want to. Yeah. You know?
People do that all the time. It's obvious. But I think in getting deep, that's where people really feel
that making that that lifestyle change is actually worth it. Sure. Where your what you put on your plate means something. Because I think the reason that you actually
got results and
and and changed and grew in the way that you did is because you got them. You learn how to do that meta thing,
not,
like, I wanna have abs.
Right? Or it's like
big muscles and look cool so I can get laid.
That sucks. Yeah. Right? Like, that you can see how it would happen and why it would.
I mean, I've been I've been there. And, you know Of of course. But we all have the deeper part too. Sure. And that's the thing that has been coached out of us
by by
the worst part of society and culture, I think, that we need to remember that we still have and we need to,
keep alive as much as we possibly can. Because whenever you say that you can't do something,
if you're out on a camping trip or you're out in the woods for just a couple of days
and if anything got real,
you know, if you go into survival mode for a certain Sure. You'll be like, I can do anything right now. It's like, I If I need to do keep a lot. And we're weird because we're in that or it's strange because we're in that weird
in between spot where it's like,
I'm about to die. Everything matters.
I'm gonna do exactly what I need to right now and learn what I need to to survive. Yep. And, like, the nothing matters. Everything's cool. I got whatever I want. And then just, like, I'm totally stressed out by traffic, my phone, text messages. You know, you're stuck in the middle Sure. Where, we don't have that that recalibration.
How do you think or why do you think you
have that? You should just start early enough
Unknown: for things to click? You mean having the ability to
Unknown: kinda see what matters, I guess. You're an old soul is what, like,
someone
who is old would say to you. Sure. You're you're ahead of your time, but it seems like you have a lot of understanding about what means something to you. I think it's because I
Unknown: was sort of forced to. Yeah. Most people are not forced to to think that way, but I was unintentionally forced to by the experiences that I've had leading up to it and seeing deeper meaning in things. If I if I wasn't able to do that when I was in school, I probably would have, like,
fucking offed myself. You know what I mean? Like, I was at a point and I don't wanna play, like, pity party or anything. But, I mean, I was definitely at a really low point
because I, you know, I didn't have a lot of friends, and kids were making fun of me so much that I just
had to find a way to see the deeper meaning in things.
And I think that sort of started the cycle.
And then when I had spent time losing weight and I don't know. It just it's really hard for me to explain. I'm I'm it's not so much that I can pinpoint a time that it it can happen. I'm just kinda trying to review my life as a whole and see if there's anything that's happened. I mean, I think that's a big contributor to it. I think
being a cook because I know a lot of different cooks. And by cooks, I mean, people who cook professionally
and
some bloggers that are actually not passionate about blogging, but passionate about food and cooking. Yeah. I think that's also a a common thread among people who like to cook is we're a little bit
ridiculous in how emotional we are. You know what I mean? We're almost too we're almost we're a little too poetic where people are like, alright. Come on. I mean, like, it's a fucking potato chip. Okay. Calm down. Right. But it's like it's almost like we go out of our way to see the beauty in things, which I don't think is a bad way to live, but also
or really any creative, I guess. Yeah. Anybody in the creative artistic realm is gonna have that is gonna kinda need to be a little weird like that. Yeah. You know you know how the the classic saying goes with, like, a contemporary artist always being, like, so strange and wearing his funny glasses and Right. Being like, this art piece makes it so many different funny glasses just, like, in our Yeah. Chakra. Yeah. And you're just and I and I feel like you you're like that too. It it is just kind of going out of your way to see the beauty in things and also just kind of once it happens to you enough, you realize that there's a deeper meaning in literally everything. Yes. Literally everything. So then when you start to look for it,
you start seeing it, and then you can't help but have that be a part of your life in everything that you do. And then suddenly,
everything just starts clicking. The way society works, the way politics work. You know what I mean? Yeah. And the way why things why things happen. And and I and I think most people could realize that they're just
too deep
into their
way of doing things all the time,
the flow of things that
they can't see it because they're too covered up by everything. But they have the ability to. It's not like I don't wanna I don't want people to think that, like, you or I are cut from a different cloth. I feel like it's definitely, like, a human thing Right. To wanna do that. It's just like It's more about, like, what are you looking for? Yeah. Exactly. In that. Exactly. Yeah. And and the same thing with negative things. If you're looking for a problem, you'll find a problem. If you're looking for a problem in a relationship, you sure as hell are gonna find plenty of problems. If you're looking for a problem in the way you eat, you're gonna find problems. You know? And so, yeah, I think it's the same thing what you're looking for. I mean, I have plenty of friends who are my age that are are scared and conditioned not to express themselves
Yeah. Because of things that they see on social media and the way that, you know, their friends will make fun of them if they get deep. Like, because I am the way that I am and I'm just like, look. I'm deep fucking deal with it, then people are like, oh, Josh is so cool when he says deep stuff. But if someone else did it Right. That was the same age
of a different part of the friends group, they would be chastised for it. Right. Because, oh, dude, you're weird. Chill out, man. You know what I mean? And it's and so it's, like, weird. It's, like, in our society, it's, like, you can't have feelings. Don't have don't feel these things.
I know it's kind of like a meta way to look at it, but in reality, I mean,
it's kinda
how we've pressured ourselves.
Unknown: Yeah. The problem is
I like, what you're saying,
I felt
when I was
young like you
as well. But it's like things have gotten way worse
in the time Oh. That I was feeling come the same way. And it's like, how do you deal with that? Like, what?
Man, because I've been like, a lot of people have been railing against the world getting,
like, turning into more of a cultural cesspool where no one cares about things that matter. But, like, really?
If, you know, you're having this conversation with, like,
my kid,
right,
ten years, fifteen years from now or something like that,
hopefully, it doesn't get that much worse. Yeah.
Right? Like, how do we actually turn this around is is what I'm wondering as we talk about this. Right. Totally right. And I I 100%
agree,
but, like,
Unknown: I I wish it had gotten better, not worse. Right. In the time that I've been working that we bought that a lot of us have been working so hard to try to make it better. Yeah. Right? I think that's also, like, a very human thing to happen, though. I feel like Yeah. Because in in my life, I've definitely been the type of person where, like, I'll just make it as worse as I can until I'm like, alright. Time to fix that. You know what I mean? And I do that with a lot of things, and I still do that. Yeah. And I I don't know if a lot I don't know if other people do that. I don't know if you've experienced that. But I think Well, you wanna know what the thing is doing, and that's the only way to test it. Is to let it get bad. To kinda miss. Yeah. It out. So I think in a way, maybe for what we're talking about, it might have to be one of those things where it has to get worse before it gets better. Yeah. You know what I mean? People have to get to the point where they're like, oh, shit. My foot's falling off because I I fucked up. You know what I mean? And then when people start seeing that more and more, people are gonna finally start to realize just like with,
you
know, our
planet being totally destroyed by trash
and the huge
you know what I mean? Like, it's it gets to a point where, like, if it gets to a point where we can't ignore it, then Right. You're damn straight people are gonna wanna change. Yeah. But if they don't see it,
then they're just gonna let it get worse and worse and worse. People just don't
I mean, because of the Internet and everything, to be fair, it kinda makes sense biologically because we never were really meant to see I mean That's true. To meet we weren't meant to see this much. You know what I mean? Like, people usually stayed in the same spot forever until they died. And, like, now I understand it. Yeah. And now we can see stuff happening all over the world all the time whenever we want. And
so
it makes sense that, like, we need to see it to believe it. It makes sense. It's, like, in our DNA. And I get that. And I think
we need to see it to believe it. And so so it that goes for everything that's happening, especially with food. It's like people
usually don't wanna lose weight until they're overweight and sick and and don't feel good. Then they're like, oh, now I wanna do it. But they never stopped along the way to getting there because there's a long road to get to overweight just as there's a long road to losing weight. Yeah. And so you have to get to the point where you you if you're gonna see it in order to fix it. Yeah. And so I think for people with with cooking,
it may have to get to that point. But I think because of what we're talking about, I feel like that could speed up the process because now it's now they're thinking about it already. Right. They don't need to see so if it's already in their mind that they're thinking about it, that then they don't really need the catastrophic moment for it to happen. Mhmm. You know what I mean? They don't need the ultimate catastrophic moment. It might just be a day where, like, they had a rough day and this is a hypothetical. They had a rough day and they, you know,
go into their house and, they don't have enough money to go out, but they have enough money to pick up some lettuce and some oil and vinegar and some salt.
That I remember listening to that podcast. You know, I'm gonna cook tonight. Fuck it. I'm gonna cook tonight. And then it happens. Yeah. And then that's the moment that I was talking about where it's like, you just started the dopamine cycle, and now now we're rolling the ball.
Unknown: This is from all that. And so I'm just thinking about this right now. It's like you could literally, if you want to, learn how to cook in a day. Oh, yeah. Right? It's like you can The Internet, dude. If you took
just a few hours to chill out and you had a day off or even you were sick or something Yeah. Just for whatever Oh my god. Yeah. You could you could instead of binge watching a show, you could binge watch
cooking videos. Yeah. Which is also fun to watch. Yeah. Totally fun and and can be very entertaining.
And
if you start to think of food the same way that you you have
thought about bread where you're over it, you've made too much, you make too much cheese or you make too much of anything,
it it does something good for you. Right? Because, like, especially, I think when you first get into cooking, you think that every ingredient is so precious and you don't wanna waste anything and it, like, costs money, you know, form. Right. And you're like, what if I screw it up? But you're gonna screw it up. And it's
if you do
the math and look at it, 40 to 50 of all food in America is wasted. Yeah. Not Oh oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And,
it's going to be wasted anyway.
It's it's not a good way to think about it, obviously.
But,
if you're just getting started with with cooking, I find that some people that's helpful, right, where it's just like, look. All this stuff is gonna be thrown away. Anyway, it's So depressing. It up. Yeah. That No big deal. But it is it it's a shift in thinking where if you're if you're providing for other people,
then wasting a little bit of food that isn't up to the standard that it would take to feed them is worth it
because that's the service that you're providing. Right. Right? And I think it takes that step for people to get over, and that's a really tough one before they're okay
with feeling like they can
Unknown: they can cook and they can own it and maybe not be made fun of for screwing it up or something. Yeah. Because that's a big part too. Oh, yeah. And, well, it's also that strive for needing to be that perfectionist mindset where it's, you know, you you why would you why would you waste money and mess it up for the sake of messing it up? Yeah. But it's also the simplicity of it is
because of the Internet
and YouTube and I mean, the margin for messing up a meal has been taken from here because and then and then and then enter the Internet. Now it's very fucking small. So we're on your phone. It's yeah. It's it's literally if you're afraid of the way that you put the chicken in the pan, look at the video. Okay. So he's laying it like that. Okay. I'm gonna here we go. Oh, I did it. That wasn't that hard. You know what I mean? If we can operate a motor vehicle, we, you know, we can operate a stovetop.
It's not as difficult as people think it's gonna be. And recipes are so specific
that, like, if you follow it and you just do what it says, and if you have a question, like, the way that something should be cut, the way that something like, how you should hold it, go to YouTube and look at a video.
Unknown: Hey. Abel here one more time. And if you believe in our mission to create a world where health is the norm, not sickness, here are a few things you can do to help keep this show coming your way. Click like, subscribe, and leave a quick review wherever you listen to or watch your podcasts.
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