Abel James: Hey, folks. This is Abel James, and thanks so much for joining us on the show. If you could save $400,000
a year in medical costs just by making a radical change to your diet, would you do it? Today, we're here with Brett Ender and Harry Gray, fellow Austenites, former college athletes turned entrepreneurs,
and hosts of the Meat Mafia podcast.
From fitness to faith, we cover a lot of ground in this one, and I hope you enjoy. Quick note before we get to the interview with Brett and Harry. If you'd like to stay up to date about our upcoming challenges as well as opportunities to work with me 1 on 1, make sure you're signed up for the newsletter at abeljames.com.
That's abeljames.com.
You can also sign up for my substack@ablejames.substack.com
or shoot me a DM. I'm a little slow to respond on some social platforms, but you can find me under Abel James or Abel James on most social media networks, and I always love hearing from you. Alright. In this episode with Brett and Harry, you're about to hear how Brett saved $400,000
a year by making a radical change to his diet,
the power of lifestyle interventions over medication,
strategies to compete as low carb ultra endurance athletes,
how to balance entrepreneurial pursuits with athletic ambitions,
and much, much more. Let's hang out with Brett and Harry.
Welcome back, folks. Today, we're here with Brett Ender and Harry Gray, cohosts of the Meat Mafia podcast,
cofounders of Noble Origins, and a pair of competitive low carb ultra endurance athletes. Brett, Harry, thanks so much for being here with us.
Harry Gray: Pleasure to be here, and thanks for having us, dude.
Brett Ender: Abel, I didn't realize how good your podcasting voice was until you kicked that off, man. You got a good voice. Sometimes I I keep it close to the chest.
Abel James: Yeah.
But you guys are are crushing it with your podcast and and kinda coming on the scene
with
some incredible energy in a time that we really need these conversations to happen, especially around,
what we're eating, what we shouldn't be eating, and and how we live. But I wanna start with, a little bit of your background because one thing that I've noticed, and I'm sure you have as well, is a lot of folks who, you know, played college ball or or were really involved in sports,
some of them
do exceedingly well after school in crushing it in business or in life, maintaining their peak performance or some level of performance in athletics. And then other ones, you know, just a few years after playing pro ball are £400,
completely lost and broke. So I'm curious for for you guys,
what has led you on this path, and what is kind of something that maybe other people who used to be involved in athletics can learn from that sort of experience?
Harry Gray: So Brett and I played college baseball together. That's how we know each other.
I grew up playing a number of different sports. I think ultimately, when you do play sports and make it to the collegiate level playing competitively,
you you have big aspirations, and that's really, like, a core part of your identity up until that point. You know, you're 18, 20 years old,
Brett Ender: and all you're doing is is playing sports focused on getting better in that realm.
And it can take up,
Harry Gray: really just like all of your vision for like what you want to do. And so on the other side of that, there's definitely challenges that you have to overcome. And so I think for myself,
you know, anyone who's listening to this, who's an ex college athlete, you've been blessed with
just the ability to focus on a craft and focus on mastery, which I think is such a core part of being successful. Like
there's
such a gift in just pursuing one thing and learning how to become really, really proficient at it. And I think athletics just teaches you so many different aspects of mastery and also mastering the context of a team sport.
So I think just like taking that and carrying that forward, you know, you aren't necessarily
always gonna be playing the sport that you love, but the context being
like you've learned how to master something and you've learned how to be in the top 1%
of 1% of people in a certain realm.
So
although there will probably be challenging times, I'm sure it'll look different for everybody else. Like for me,
you know, I, I stopped playing actually,
after my sophomore season and dealt with it like during college really. So I was just trying to, you know, do basically everything and anything to figure out what I wanted to do next. And it took me a year to really figure out what that looked like. And ultimately it was coming back to the health and wellness space where I found that true passion.
But I think it just it takes time. You know, not everyone makes that transition smoothly.
For me, it was just trying to get as many reps in as possible across the board and just try to put that creative energy and that passion that I had for sports into something else as quickly as possible. And it might always like, you know, not look pretty, but, you know, I think on the other side, you you will eventually find something that you can put your heart and soul into.
Abel James: Love that.
Brett Ender: Yeah. And Abel, I would say just to piggyback off Harry,
you know, I think between, you know, the origins of you with the fat burning man and us with the meat mafia and noble origins, our supplement company,
I think the 3 of us have taken the approach of not necessarily being the specialist in the space, more of like the curious
outsider that Yeah. You know, whether it was you trying to lose some weight or it was me trying to heal ulcerative colitis, coming at it from the perspective of, you know, we don't come from traditional medicine. You're not a you're not a registered nutritionist or a dietitian or a strength and conditioning coach, but you've put in a lot of iterations, and you've gone down the rabbit hole of alternative health because you're so desperate for answers that maybe your traditional doctor isn't giving you.
And that was the category that I found myself in as a senior in college. I just got really sick entering my senior year of college.
And even though I was performing at a high level from a baseball perspective,
that was purely geared towards performance. But from a health perspective,
you know, I was binge drinking. I was eating a lot of processed foods. I wasn't sleeping great, and I was also chronically stressed out
and just found my large intestine getting to this really inflamed state to the point where I, you know, was just constantly going to the bathroom.
You know, my life became dependent around being around a toilet,
got diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, and then immediately got put on a ton of drugs and medication that cost $400,000
a year.
And my doc you know, my my doctor wasn't talking to me about diet and lifestyle intervention,
and I just thought I was gonna be on these drugs for the rest of my life. You know, flash forward a few years into the future after I graduated,
you know, I started to hear about, you know, Sean Baker and a lot of these incredible
OG carnivore practitioners,
the Mark Sissons of the world who I know you've interviewed
on your podcast before. And, honestly, just going down the Reddit rabbit hole, I was finding all of these people that had similar autoimmune diseases that they were told were incurable.
They were gravitating towards these diet and lifestyle levers and style levers and and curing themselves. And my doctor this whole time is telling me that it's not curable.
And so that kinda gave me proof of concept that the body is this amazing self healing machine. I just haven't been giving it the right fuel and the right inputs. And, you know, doing the carnivore diet fairly strict for 2 years completely changed my life, and I ended up getting off all the drugs and medication,
you know, cured the the terrible bloating and gassiness and dependency,
going to the bathroom.
And now looking back in 2024, I really feel like I'm in the best shape of my life. And so that was a huge focal point for Harry and I to start the show was we feel like
this the reason why we're here in this metabolic health crisis is very complex,
but the systems and the answers for how we can get out of it are actually very simple. And so we take that kind of informed consumer approach to the show, and that fascination with trying to put out the best information possible in a very simple manner has always fueled both of us. I love that. For you, Brett,
Abel James: did you go from, like, 0 to a 100 as far as the carnivore thing goes, or did you kinda, like, dip your toes into it and experiment at first? What was that experience like for you?
Brett Ender: Yeah. I just remember I I had this feeling of I think I listened to enough shows and seen enough people
give their testimony. And this is back in 2019. So the carnivore diet was definitely more of a fringe movement, but there was enough of a body of work around,
you know, people that had been experimenting with this this particular approach to eating for a for an extended period of time, and they were getting results that I wasn't having. Mhmm. And at that point, I was getting biologic infusions that I I would get an infusion hooked up into my forearm every 8 weeks.
And I just didn't wanna live a life that was dependent on these these drugs and medications and these infusions.
So I don't wanna say hit a point of desperation. It was more of just
extreme vigor around what if I go all in on this thing and I actually can reverse these symptoms?
How good would my life be? How much potential am I ultimately leaving on the table?
So from day 1, you know, I remember I was living in Manhattan at the time, going to the Whole Foods on the upper east side, you know, loading up on steak and ground beef, chicken thighs, butter, beef tallow, bone broth,
and just sticking to that group of 5 or 6 foods for the better part of of 2 years.
But pretty much within the 1st week, I had, like, dramatic success with the diet. Like, I could feel I could feel the inflammation leaving. I felt the energy. My quality of thought was so
good. You know, any anxious thoughts kinda just got eradicated. And once you get that first hit of how good you could feel by using the right fuel, there's really no going back at that point. And just the more that I learned, the more I experimented, the more all in that I went. And,
that was just the approach that I took, and it worked really well for me.
Abel James: And what does it look like now?
Brett Ender: It's a good question, man. And
I would say that I ultimately consider the carnivore diet to be an incredible tool,
and I think that's polarizing within the carnivore
community to say. And I and I do think there are some psychology around. I think we love getting married to to these tribes. Like, outside of religion, I think dietary tribes is, like, secondary to religion in terms of how we self identify. Mhmm. I don't think
that the arguments like warring against vegetables and fruits are responsible for why we're so metabolically broken as a country. I think Harry and I agree that the fact that 63% of all calories are coming in the form of ultra processed foods in the US. So, you know, now that I have a permeable gut, I just stick to single ingredient real foods that are protein dominant. So I would say 80% of my calories a day are coming in the form of animal protein. You know, I throw in some rice, some potatoes, some fruit, some vegetables. Like, my girlfriend loves cooking steak and vegetables.
And I feel like I'm permeable enough where I can actually digest and inherit a lot of those amazing micronutrients.
So I'm trying not to I think in the past, I was shaming myself for eating those foods. And now I've just found that, you know, there's a lot of beauty to combining all these different amazing food groups and still be protein dominant. And I I would say I'm still fairly low carb where it's like a 150 grams of carbs a day, but I'm not counting much just because I know if I'm eating those foods, my body's metabolizing it the right way, and I've just built up so much intuition over the last 5 years. Yeah. It's incredible how divisive this whole diet culture can be. Whether, you know, you're talking about vegan or carnivore or anything in between, people, get very, very
Abel James: tribal
about all of this and not necessarily in a good way. It can be empowering, and I I think community building around all of this is is super important. But at the same time, you shouldn't be kicked out of the tribe for eating a vegetable from time to time. Like, we need to get our priorities straight. And so kudos to you guys for talking about animal based eating and, doing that responsibly and regenerative agriculture and all of that, but also not saying that this is the only answer everyone else is completely wrong. Because I think for a lot of people out there, I I mean, if we look at the real problems, the vast majority of people are sick, uninformed,
uneducated, or just don't think that that eating this way or or kind of eating real food is worth it or we'll get the results. So, Harry, what was what was your background as far as that goes? I know that, I've heard you say back in the day, you weren't necessarily
eating super clean as an athlete and you can kinda get away with a lot more when when you're younger and going to practice every day and that sort of thing. But what did that look like for you?
Harry Gray: Yeah, totally. I started getting dialed in with my health when I started taking sports more seriously. So I started training when I was like 14,
really going to this gym. I grew up just outside DC going to this gym in Tysons Corner, Virginia called Prospects. They had some of the best trainers in the country. And so, like, from a training perspective,
I I felt like I was really getting the best I could possibly get at that age in that point in time. You know, I was going there almost every day, like, either
practicing baseball, getting like, working on my skills or training in the gym, but I definitely was not focused on what I was eating. And so, like, you know, at home, my mom was putting good food on the table. When I wanna go to school, I would just eat. I would eat everything, like nachos, cookies, chips,
sandwiches, what like, literally whatever was at the cafeteria at school, I was hammering. And so, yeah, I'm a bigger guy, 64. At the time, I was like, you know, 210, 220,
and I I could totally get away with it because I was training a ton. I'm young, and it didn't really show up in any other way other than, you know, my hormones were definitely struggling.
You know, I saw that in the form of, like, cystic acne,
dealt with that for a bit in high school, and that was like a 100% dietary related. And so for me, I didn't really start tinkering with my diet until
college.
Started going down the paleo rabbit hole, gotten to Tim Ferris's stuff,
really gotten to like the slow carb diet and all that,
and saw some like incredible
gains in the gym and on the field and was just feeling, feeling so good. Like I had teammates who are not focused on that stuff, and me and one other guy were just getting super dialed in with nutrition
and just saw those benefits.
And then as soon as I stopped playing ball, you know, my training schedule was locked in.
I was eating pretty well. And then as I got into the workforce, like I just noticed my, my lifestyle shifted so much where I was so much more sedentary. I wasn't active during the day. I was sitting at a desk all day and like quickly
without really much observation from myself
started seeing that my diet was shifting as well. Even though I was trying to eat the right things,
I either like wasn't eating enough
protein and started eating a lot more processed foods because I was never satiated.
And that just like led to this slow drip of just like, you know, every few months, just getting a little bit slower, a little bit more brain fog, not sleeping as well. And then 3, 4 years in, I was like, oh man, you know, I, I really gotta like get back to it. And I wasn't like crazy out of shape or anything, but it's one of those things where when you come from being like in peak shape to anything off of that, you realize it pretty quickly.
So during COVID, I started experimenting similar to Brett with carnivore,
keto, and just
my body reacted so well to it. I got amazing sleep, like realized that my energy levels were way off before because they rebounded to this incredible level. Cognitive performance was great.
So I just saw quickly, like how much can shift in a matter of, I think within 3 weeks,
I had probably lost like £10
was sleeping amazing,
waking up with great energy.
And all it took was just a few tweaks. Really, I was just, I wasn't even going to the gym because it was during COVID. I was just going outside, hitting long walks, cooking all my meals and prioritizing
animal based foods. And then that just got a little bit more. I just kept experimenting a little bit more and a little bit more and saw how impactful it was for myself.
And at that point, you know, Brett and I had started getting back into contact and just really obsessing over this stuff again, wanting to sign up for some endurance races together. And both of us just felt this call to
really just dive into this stuff even more. I think once you get that personal
story of even a slight transformation like myself, which was ultimately like losing £20, feeling great, you know, getting back into playing shape. It's like once you feel that you just want to spread it to people because in your twenties, it's very easy to just slide back down the hill, chalk everything up as aging and you slowing down a bit.
But really I think it's, it's inspiring seeing guys like Paul Saladino, Mark Sisson,
who are,
you know, I wouldn't call them old by any means the way they live their lives. They act like they're like 20 years old. So, you know, just seeing them further down the road and the way that they're living their life and being super active, I find that incredibly inspiring
and like that's the life I want to ultimately live. So
realizing that I was like, I'm going all in on this, this health stuff. This is where my passion has been for a long time. And just kinda realized that, you know, the corporate stuff wasn't for me anymore. And that was really the start of Brett and I just going all in on everything.
Abel James: Amazing. What about starting the podcast? I'm curious because there was this huge
kind of, like, wave of new podcasters,
say, 4 or 5 years ago, certainly throughout the pandemic. And a lot of that was just kind of, like, becoming Zoom literate. Right? Like, before that, it was having a video based podcast
with audio as well. Huge challenge getting a lot of these, like, authors and scientists and other people who aren't, like, influencers or really on the Internet to, like, be able to set up a webcam and, like, be in front of it and have an Internet connection. That was really hard In the years since, obviously, it's completely different now, but we had this huge, like,
flood of new podcasters, and
80 or 90% of them, like, didn't make it. They're not still doing the show. So I'm curious about for you guys, like, your passion is obvious. Your show is amazing. What is it that is has allowed you to kind of, like, keep going, double down, and stay hungry?
Brett Ender: Yeah. It's such a good question, man. And I think our timing was fortunate because we recorded our first episode of the Meat Mafia podcast in 2022.
So we kinda had the 2 years for these scientists and professors to figure out how to navigate Zoom and Google Hangout and Locaster
and all these platforms that you've seen since you've been doing this for 13 years, which is so cool, the stories you probably have.
But before we ever recorded a podcast, we actually had a pretty nice Twitter following that we built up quickly.
And a lot of brands or creators don't think about Twitter first. You know, it's easy to think, oh, Instagram or TikTok or YouTube.
Harry and I just found we actually found kinda like these hidden gifts as writers.
And so what we did for the 1st 6 months is we just told these stories about the food system. You know? We talked about the demonization of saturated fat, told the story of Ancel Keys,
Earl Butz, industrial agriculture,
processed food consumption.
We just told these stories really well over written form,
and that grew our Twitter following pretty sizably so that when we decided, hey, written content is great, but if we wanna have the largest impact that we can, we should probably really talk to the experts that we've learned from that we're kind of basing a lot of our content off of. And because we had consumed this stuff for probably 4 years prior to ever launching the brand, We just had so many questions, so it was really organic because we were just reaching out to the people that we had looked up to, that we had learned from for years,
and just asking the questions that, a, we wanted to know. And number 2, hey, when we were just getting started 4 years ago and we could have asked these people direct questions, what would we have asked them? What would have been them? What's the most useful question to our audience? And that's really all we did. And I think people would be surprised because the biggest question we used to get was, you know, how are you getting these big guests like Sean Baker or Ken Berry on your podcast when you're so small?
I think most people forget the value of a really nice, thoughtful,
cold DM written to someone and just persistent follow-up. Mhmm. And, you know, I think people would be shocked if you send enough really thoughtful DMs that are that show that you really care about the person you wanna have on your show.
8 times out of 10, I think they'd actually say yes to you because, you know, if you're asking someone like Sean to coffee,
it's fairly transactional. He's not getting benefit out of it. But even if your podcast is small, you're giving him a free piece of digital content.
We're creating clips for him that he can use for social media. And, also, a lot of people do wanna help as well, so we just really leaned into that.
And, I think we and what Harry and I consciously said was, hey. We've never done a podcast before. We need to get a lot of reps in because we're kinda going from off the couch. So we were we just became the volume guys, and anyone that wanna record with us, we would drop we're doing record with them. And so I think we had a month in June where we did what was it, Harry? Like, 35 podcasts in a month in June 22?
Harry Gray: Yeah. We did 35 podcasts in a month. There was 1 week, I think we did 9:9
podcasts, and Brett was still working a full time job.
And the crazy thing was, like,
just the early days
when Brett and I were just writing on Twitter, like, fanatically
and doing these podcasts
fanatically.
And
Brett has this part of his personality or once he gets locked in, it's
like just he gets into bulldog mode. He would my calendar was just getting filled up with just podcast guests or podcast guests.
I'm like, oh, Brett is on fire. So I think, like, going into something with a blank slate, like Brett and I were, like, we had nothing to lose. And I think
I don't wanna say, like, we were,
like, one of the first podcasts in the virtual setting post COVID.
I mean, we were a part of that group, but I think we might have been, like, a little bit before, like, a lot of people got involved. And one of the things I feel like we might have proven out to the people who are paying attention to us, who ultimately ended up starting podcast was exactly what Brett said. If you just go after it and show people that you're building something, you can do a lot of it virtually. You can do all of it virtually, and you can connect with amazing people. And so I think we're we just brought this level of excitement early on where we just really wanted to get involved in the space and figure it out
and kinda had that nothing to lose mentality.
And the show has definitely evolved since then. There's been seasons of it kind of taking different turns and getting more into talking to entrepreneurs as opposed to regenerative farmers or doctors, like
maybe, what it used to look like. But I think what's kept us going and exciting
excited about it is ultimately just, like,
the shared passion between Brett and myself for having these types of conversations.
And ultimately, I think that, like,
what drives Brett and I the most is this feeling that our culture today is centered around
be like, if you take the average person involved in the culture in the west,
you're fairly unhealthy.
And ultimately, like, maybe not working the job, like, not fully passionate about what you're doing. And I think for us,
we want to create a culture of people who are incredibly healthy, passionate about what they're doing in life and going after things that they care about. And ultimately that stuff just bleeds into,
you know, your community and the people around you, which is so important.
So we just get excited about that. And just the people that we get to talk to is incredible.
Abel James: Yeah. Having a podcast is one of the most magnificent things ever,
like ever. It's not for everyone, obviously. It's not particularly well paid or well rewarded in traditional ways,
or at least most podcasts aren't right out of the gate that way. You have to put in serious work. But the idea that you can basically connect with almost anyone, especially people who are at the top of their fields doing
really incredible work. And just
speak to them for an hour or a few hours. Sit down with them. Ask whatever you want, and they give you honest answers. Like, it's still amazing to me that this is a thing. You know? It it really is. But, you know,
it's really easy for a lot of folks as well. If you kind of,
push it too hard, do too many shows, burn yourself out for that passion
to kind of fizzle a little bit. And you guys are obviously very curious,
and that stands out in your your interviews. You're great listeners with each other. You you play well together. These are things that I think anyone who wants to start a podcast or kinda, like, start their own thing really need to pay attention to because it's much, much more collaborative,
ideally, than I think most people would imagine who haven't tried it before. But, man, having the ability to reach out to those folks, whether it's virtually or in person, is just a wonderful, wonderful gift. But let's talk about the in person thing. What was it about Austin that that got you guys here?
An incredible place to be for people who are kind of, you know, of our interest and and ill. So I'll let you go. Brett, why don't you start?
Brett Ender: Yeah. I would say that what Harry and I had in common is that we were both in these
large northeast metropolitan cities. I was in New York City for about 4 years. Harry was in Boston for a similar stint.
And
you're going deep into this, like, alternative health movement, which is somewhat countercultural.
Yeah. And it's really difficult to find your tribe. Right? In both of those cities, like, I still
get so energized going back to New York for a weekend and just feeling that energy and the fast paced nature of it. I don't think there's anything like it, but I think we both had this feeling as men in our mid to late twenties at the time that we were just dying to create something.
And we just really felt this pull that we needed to do whatever we could to just get in the health and wellness space and just promote the information that we were burning to talk about and try and ultimately turn that into a business that would help make people's lives healthier.
And we had just been hearing so much about Austin from some friends that we had had, but just also a lot of people that we had consumed content from. The vibe that we were getting is that it was really this renaissance for the health and wellness space.
And so Ironman Waco was amazing, that race that we did in 2021,
because it allowed us to get an Airbnb in Austin for 3 months kind of as this, like, trial experience to see if the city was everything that it we would want the city to live to up to what it was gonna be. Yeah. And, I would say we left that experience
as a resounding yes, to be honest with you. And I don't think that our show or our brand or whatever we're doing
would be nearly the level that it is right now had we not, like, physically planted ourselves in Austin.
It reminds me a lot of Steven Pressfield's book, Put Your Ass Where Your Heart Wants to Be. So if you wanna be in finance, you should be in New York. You know, if you wanna be tech, you should be in Silicon Valley. If you wanna be in the health and wellness space, you should ultimately be in Austin.
And just the serendipity,
the connections, whether you're at our gym, whether you're at the podcasting studio, whether you're out at a restaurant,
you're just constantly meeting new people and pulling them into your world, and you're getting pulled into their world. And, you know, just to see the spider web of relationships that we've built just by physically being in the city
is truly amazing. And, I think there's kind of a flavor of everything in Austin depending on your interests. You can get a taste of that depending on what you're into here.
Harry Gray: Yeah. I would add,
Austin for for me was
I had lived in a few different cities, but
ultimately worked
most of my life in Boston. And so similar to Brett, I think getting to a place where there was a reverence for creativity
was really important. And I, you know, New York definitely has that Boston. I just, I never really felt it. And part of it was probably because I was working in a totally different realm, different sphere, but
getting down to Austin,
it was insane. It felt like we were in like a totally different world. Like there was run clubs every day. Each gym had its own personality and character. And,
you know, we would meet one person. They were just like, you've got to meet my group of friends over here. And it was so easy to just get plugged in. Yeah. Brett and I were texting this morning. We were just like, it's truly amazing the amount of people that we've come into contact with
in the city of Austin or through the city of Austin. And just the quality of people, you know, the willingness to actually want to help you on whatever path you're on is
truly something that I, you know, I think is really special to Austin.
I do feel like there's almost this collaborative nature to the type of person who comes to Austin and is working on things.
And so, you know, I just love the city for, for that. It's gritty. It's got, you know, a little bit of everything.
Definitely weird.
Definitely not perfect. But I think for people who are looking to get their start in the health and wellness space,
there's truly a renaissance going on right now in Austin, and it's super fun to be a part of.
Abel James: Yeah. It feels like it. I'm also from the northeast, grew up in New Hampshire and,
worked in DC and Manhattan after college. And,
even back in 2008 when I moved to Austin, it was kind of, like, similar vibes, but they're much more aggressively in the health and wellness space than they used to be and much more aggressively in kind of, like, the podcasting space. It was always a collection of weirdos, but one of the things I love about it here is that, you know, in the Northeast, you you people are like, what do you do? And if you don't say, like, banking or consulting or, like, some other job like that, then they're like, what?
And down in in Austin, like, it's amazing. I remember some of the first friends I had here. I was hanging out for months, like, really good friends. And we realized, like, we were sitting we've known each other for, like, 6 months or something like that, hanging out pretty much every week. And none of us had any idea what the other ones did for work. No idea Wow. Whatsoever.
And,
it's kind of this wonderful collection of weirdos as well that can help,
normalize that, normalize people going after their own path, building their own thing, not necessarily prioritizing
status or prestige or the things that other people think you should do as much as they're following your passions.
And, so I love
what what Austen has become. Like you said, it's it's not perfect, but anyone out there who's listening and kind of on the fence, at least come here and and do what Brett and Harry did. Like, try it out for a little bit. Like, rent a house or, like, just, like, stay in a hotel for a few days, a few weeks. Spend some time here and see what happens because, it's not just the folks who live here, but it's kind of becoming this hub
that
also
incredible people who don't live here come through on a regular basis. And so if you're looking to build out your own business,
your own brand, your own podcast, that sort of thing, I can't imagine a better place to be than this. But let's talk about your, athletic pursuits.
Why in the world would you grind so hard, especially once you're,
you know, post athletics, out of school, that sort of thing, out of competition? What is driving you to go after these, like, at at least according to other people, kind of insane goals?
Brett Ender: Well, I think we,
honestly, especially after graduating, I think we start normalizing a lot of things that we shouldn't be normalizing in this country.
And I think both of us going to Babson College up in Boston,
you just see these this trend of, like, you're done playing baseball,
and people look back at their time as a 21 year old as the pinnacle of, like, physical shape that they'll ever be in. And you immediately get into the happy hour culture, the 9 to 5 lifestyle,
you know, processed foods, 2 to 3 beers, you know, martinis, stuff like that. And you look back in 5 years, and a lot of our friends that we went to college with were, you know, 24, 25. They looked like they were 40 year old men because they weren't prioritizing themselves.
And I know for me, I think it I think it was this fear of
I didn't feel like when I graduated
school
that I had, like, tapped into my potential at all. I felt like I actually underachieved relative to my potential as an athlete.
And when you're 21, you're still a kid at that point. Like, 21 should not be your pinnacle. Like, I think I don't even think most men hit their physical pinnacle until they're 30, 32 ish. So that's a whole decade to tap in and you're you know, to think that everything stops at 21 is actually really sad to think about. Mhmm. And so, you know, Harry and I actually weren't in close communication after we graduated.
We just found that we were almost both in these, like, very parallel tracks doing similar things.
And for me, I just looked I looked at myself in the mirror right after graduating college, and, you know, I was 205,
was carrying a lot of inflammation,
binge drinking a bunch, eating like crap. And,
I remember realizing, like, you love listening to David Goggins and Jocko Willink and all these motivational speakers,
but you're not actually following the prescription of what they're telling of what they're telling you to do. You're not waking up early. You're not eating well. You're not going on long runs. And so I I just started running on my own
when I was living in my parents' house in New Jersey just to try and get this mental edge and tap into something that I was missing. And I I remember
going for a 3 mile run on my own for the first time was an amazing accomplishment, because I never even ran 3 miles on my own playing college baseball.
And like anything else, you get that initial spark, and you're like, alright. Well well, now what what could I do if I really apply myself?
And so the 3 mile run turns into a, you know, 6 mile run and a 10 mile run. You sign up for your first half marathon, and your marathon,
And then next thing you know, Harry and I are doing an Ironman together, which was, like, the backbone of our basis,
the basis for our entire business. And so I'll let Harry speak for himself, but we've kinda found this cool thing of putting one big
endurance challenge
on the calendar that really scare scares you and primes the pump. And, you know, a little bit of fear and excitement is a good thing, and I think it just helps you sharpen the ax physically
so you can sharpen the ax with our business as well too. And I hope that that's a that's, you know, a tradition that we continue to carry on of, like, one big pursuit a year. Cool.
Harry Gray: Yeah. I I think back to just a moment in time where Brett and I were both, you know, still living in the northeast. We were kinda really just getting reacquainted as friends. Like,
you know, as Brett said, we weren't incredibly close in college. It was a year younger than me. I had stopped playing when he had gotten on the team. So it was it was really after school when we we got close.
And I think both of us really had this feeling that we had a lot of potential left on the bone after playing sports in college
and realizing that we had let some things,
opportunities squander and lost focus and not not being concentrated on the things that we knew in our hearts that we wanted to do. And so I think the endurance races were really
much more of like a spiritual
awakening than they were a physical or mental test, even though they were absolutely physical and mental challenges. I think there were really
events for us to really push ourselves to a place that we knew we could get to.
And really just waking up that spirit of like, hey, you guys have so much that you're capable of doing.
All it takes is a vision and the work to just
actually go out and pursue it. And so
I think there was a probably a bit of just, like, seeking that feeling of going after something really big that was a void after sports.
And
ultimately we knew that we had something on the other side of, you know, sports, the corporate life, and then us getting into entrepreneurship.
We knew there was going to be something big for us there. It was really, I think the endurance stuff that really pulled us in the direction of
having that mindset and that spirit that, hey, we're capable of doing this stuff. We can do it. And I think both of us just are are cut from a similar cloth in that sense.
And, yeah, just love love the feeling of finding the edge and, continuing to push.
Abel James: What about fueling for that? Are you just slamming t bones, or what does that look like for for the team?
Brett Ender: Yeah. I think that,
when we were training, we would stick to a fairly, like, low carbohydrate
approach,
then actually, like, incorporate carbohydrates and things like that during the races themselves. I think, like, the common philosophy was that, hey, we're at the start line.
Now all we're trying to do is just engineer the outcome that we want. So
and the problem too with the endurance space up until recently is, like, a lot of these gels are just, like, just sugar bombs, to be honest with you, and they're really disruptive to the gut. Now there's new brands like Honey Plus, where it's just organic well, you know, raw honey electrolytes.
There's some really cool alternatives out there, but I've never done and this is actually pretty cool, because we've had people on the podcast. I've never done an endurance race, like, fasted or, like, purely fat adapted during the race where I'm sticking to a low carbohydrate approach.
Mhmm. But we've had people on that have done it, and so we know that it's possible. We we had a guy on that
actually did a sub 11 hour Ironman eating nothing but 3 hard boiled eggs the entire day and electrolytes.
So this stuff is its stuff is possible. It's just not taught. It's not common knowledge, unfortunately.
Abel James: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. It's funny. Very similar parallels to my experience. It was it was running marathons that that largely got me into podcasting
and entrepreneurship
just because you kind of, like, you get that bug and then all of a sudden you you force yourself to do something that's
very difficult and you feel
invincible sometimes after that experience. You know, you kinda like you found that edge and then you can keep pushing
in cool directions.
So I'm curious. How much sugar could you tolerate during some of those events?
Harry Gray: I was my mindset going into the endurance events was always trying to
I tried to train
fairly low carb. And then on the day of the race, I was probably hammering,
you know, anywhere from, like, 50 grams of sugar an hour to, like, 75 grams of sugar an hour. So
I trained enough with with some sugar that it was ready to go, but I I always tried to get into that fat burning state just because my body just felt better. So I would try to
delay my nutrition for, like, an hour into the race and then start to really, like, you know, eat carbs. And
at that point, you're burning fat and carbs equally. Your body doesn't really recognize it as either,
you're just, you're fully burning both.
So, you know,
yeah, 50 to 75 grams of carbs an hour was kinda my go to framework and worked pretty well. I would say I was probably not
perfect with my fueling during those days, but, you it's always something that I was tinkering with.
Brett Ender: Abel, when you were racing, were you a low carb guy or would you incorporate sugar and kind of the traditional endurance fuel? Yeah. I tried both. So I, I grew up
Abel James: running quite a bit and running cross country in high school and that sort of thing. And certainly wasn't low carb then, but once I was in my twenties, that's when I really started experimenting with intermittent fasting,
longer endurance events, and and low carb eating. But for the most part, especially if I was racing, that's where I would stack some of the carbs. And I would try to, you know, source them from
something that wasn't traditional flours and I it wouldn't wreck my gut. But at the same time, I wasn't afraid of of the honey stingers and some of those goo packs or whatever. But I tried to stay away from the ones that were just like pure caffeine and chemicals and then high fructose corn syrup or whatever. There were garbage ones. But even back then, you could find pretty decent options
that would allow you to fuel. But I I think it's
it's really important for people to experiment with not just that low carb carnivore approach, but also combining it with those physical activities. But because I think you kind of can't get the whole picture without each of those sides of it. Right? It's like you have to understand glycogen
and sugar and how that's stored and used if you're going to be pushing yourself that hard. So I know that it was extraordinarily
instructive to me by experimenting
with trying to, like,
see when I would bonk. And and for people who are listening who don't know what bonking is, it's basically just, like, under fueling carbs and running out of them at some point during an endurance event. And so you see grown men crying or crapping their pants or just running in the wrong direction because they lose their minds. Like, by bonking becomes ugly for a lot of people. And,
no matter how low carb I got, I never had a hard bonk. Sometimes I could feel myself approaching it a little bit, but it was more,
I I think by embracing the
the low carb eating, going a little bit heavier on on the meats and the proteins
back then,
that allowed me to kinda, like, build that separate gear that I feel like I still have in a lot of those event. I'm I'm I'm not going out and running marathons or doing triathlons
right now, but you still kind of, like, have that gear that you can put into
action. Totally. But I'm curious for you guys. How do you choose your next big challenge, especially together?
Harry Gray: It's been a
it's been a hodgepodge
the last few years. I'm trying to remember the
the habanero 100. I feel like, Brett, you signed up for that one just kinda on a whim, and I was like, alright. I'm in.
Brett Ender: I think I drink a strong espresso and just signed up on the spot.
Harry Gray: Yeah. I think the honest answer is Brett gets overly caffeinated at, like, 6 AM and signs up for a race. And then I'm like, yep. Let's do it.
Abel James: Yeah. Harry's Harry the guy or the small guy?
Brett Ender: Harry's a better runner than I am. Okay.
He crushes. Yeah.
But we did the habanero. We did the habanero together because
one of the things that we also love to do is not necessarily train or prepare the best way. A little bit more of a mental kick in the balls that way. In habanero hundred, it's, you know, it's on a ranch outside of Houston, Texas.
It's on the hottest
time period in all of Texas, which is the middle of August, and they started at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, so it's the hottest part of the day.
And so this ranch was just it was just a 6 mile track, and so we did the 100 k distance. It's not the 100 mile distance. So, you know, a little over 60 miles.
But the actual footing of the race, it felt like the entire ground was covered in quicksand.
So you're it was just sand, so you just couldn't get any traction.
So to combine that ridiculous distance
with the the amount that we were sweating, not training on that, it was pretty ugly.
But
with that was kind of a moment where if we didn't quit on each other after literally wanting to quit a 100 times that day, You know, it's like we can kinda do everything together. It's it's the feeling of, like, when you're about to public speak, and you've got that nervousness to you Mhmm. And that excitement, that energy. It's almost like riding a roller coaster, but it's also really similar to the start of, like, some of the marathons that you've done Abel or an Ironman. So I think all this stuff just really translates. But, typically, the the way that we sign up is something that's unique, something we haven't done before, something that would be like an unforgettable experience.
And we haven't done a race together in about a year, and that's that's actually it's a good reminder for us to take our own prescription and find something on the calendar that we can both do together because, you know, that that's the backbone of everything that we're doing is just finding these unforgettable experiences and pushing yourself, and there's always gonna be something amazing on the other side of that. Yeah. What about,
Abel James: I mean, you've got a lot of spinning plates between the 2 of you. How do you keep it all straight, and how do you prioritize
between business, these athletic pursuits, podcasting, and all the rest of it?
Harry Gray: The honest answer is having a great team around us, which has taken a really long time for, I think, Brett and myself to realize that that's kind of
the, the key to getting a lot of things done and going after a lot of big goals is you can't do it alone. Yeah. And so I think early on, that was clear. Like, Brett and I had each other. We're able to, like, pour ourselves into the podcast, pour ourselves into the social media stuff.
And as we've continued to build, we've really felt the need to bring people on. And sometimes it's been, you know, our own stubbornness and kind of breaking things because we've taken on too many things. I think probably Brett and I would both totally agree that, you know, we both like to take on more than we can handle. And I think that you learn the hard way pretty quickly when you're out there, in the world of entrepreneurship and building things that
you can't really get away with that focus and concentration is key. And if you're going to build anything of value. And so
having a really strong team to cover your back, to cover your 6 on all the different things that you wanna build is super important. So for us,
we've broken things and messed up a 1000000 times, but ultimately when those things get fixed, it's
relying on people and a team and learning that we have to delegate. We have to spread things out. And so we've gotten
a little bit better at that over the the last few years to but still a work in progress.
Abel James: And what about you guys talk about God. You talk about how much that means to you in prayer and and things like that. And and and for a lot of folks, especially outside of Texas, that can be a taboo subject to to dig into, especially
when the the focus of the conversation for many people is elsewhere. But I'm curious, how does that affect your lives? How does that help you
drive forward and and make sure you're going in in the right direction?
Brett Ender: A 100%. I would say that,
like, the practical answer is what Harry just gave, and then kind of, like, the more
rooted answer would be just our spiritual practice and our relationship with God and Christ. And Harry and I, you know, again, like, just another similarity where, you know, Harry grew up Episcopalian, I grew up Catholic. Like a lot of young men, we got away from the the spirituality
and our relationship with God going to college. I think, you know,
traditional
Western University really, like, rips out God as as part of the equation, which, you know, we could probably send a whole separate podcast talking about that.
And I think, you know, partially, like, getting our health under control,
eating the right foods, I think it helps you really develop an antenna to God, which is probably the most important reason. Just your your your quality of thought, your confidence,
you you become a different man, and I think that
that allowed us to give us the confidence to start the podcast.
And what Harry and I both realized is that the guest that we respected the most all mentioned their relationship with God.
And so for me, I just thought, well, if you're so smart, why are you unhappy? Why do you not have a relationship with God?
And our triathlon coach,
Natasha Vander Merway, who runs NVDM Coaching, she trained Nick Bare for his Ironmans.
She's one of the best, if not the most prolific triathlon coach in the entire country.
She kind of pull she saw the progression that Harry and I were on, and pulled us to her small nondenominational
church that she had been going to called Thrive.
And once you get in the right community, man, with the with the right people, the right pastor, the right worship music,
it's the the sky is the limit. So, you know, we're I don't think either of us are here to force it on anyone. It was just something that that you just have to find that that right community and that right church that speaks to you, and you you'll get hit with it, and you'll know when you're in the right roof to to worship God. But it's been that's been the biggest difference maker for us over the last few years more than anything. And I think,
partially, we have we feel a responsibility
through Meet Mafia to potentially help our listeners develop their own relationship with God as well. Mhmm.
Harry Gray: Yeah. The only thing I could add to that too is
we were talking the other day in our office.
Spirituality
in our faith comes up all the time in our office amongst the people who work with us, and there's definitely, you know, some level of differing opinions and beliefs in the office. But
I do think that fighting that
that nature in the culture of it being taboo to talk about
a topic so important
as faith, you know,
the the meaning of life,
the core of our identity,
Like these are questions that we should answer before we pursue almost any relationship, pursue any job.
It's a progression. It's always an evolution. It's not a, you know, I've reached this point and now I'm just, I'm good to go. You're always learning.
And so I just,
I think Brett and I both have
just fallen into the camp of these are really important conversations to have, wear it on our sleeves.
Don't be afraid of it. Be open minded, like
walk into every conversation
lovingly, but it's really important to talk about these things. And I don't see how we can build bridges if we're afraid to talk about our faith and what's important to us. So for us, just having gone through this transformation
over the last 3 years of our faith and really just a reinvigoration of connecting with God, it's it's really important for us to lead with that in some ways. You know, if people are curious, it's it's just such a fun conversation to have. I mean, you can see walls being broken down right in front of your eyes, just through being able to communicate with the right words into somebody's life. And I think that,
you know, that skill,
that gift is something that is really
like, worth sharing. And, yeah, I just I I hope that it becomes less taboo to talk about it. You know, it feels like that narrative
is like,
yeah, it's cast on us. Like, we shouldn't talk about these things, but it's such a fun topic, and I would encourage people to explore it.
Abel James: Agreed. Yeah. And,
I'll I'll just say too, because we only have a a couple of minutes left here that,
anyone out there who who needs another podcast to listen to, check out Meat Mafia because you guys there's there's a big difference between people who have a podcast and they just wanna, like, go after big guests or whatever, and they ask the same questions as everyone else and just kinda like that that that that going down the list. Huge difference between that and what you guys are doing. Courageous conversations.
You can tell that you're legitimately curious
and and care about these things. Like, it's so important to care when you have these conversations. And the people on the on other end of it can can always tell. So, kudos to you guys for doing that. Right. What is the best place for,
people to go to find the Meat Mafia podcast, Noble Origins, and everything else you're working on?
Brett Ender: Yeah, man. That's that's a great question. I mean, you're you're a perfect testament to that too. Doing this for 13 years, people know you as the fat burning man, and I think yours we're very similar where it's like, well, it's not just nutrition. There's all these other interests that we wanna blend together. And so in full transparency,
Harry and I have had conversations behind closed doors of should it be the Meat Mafia podcast? Should it be something that encompasses our broader life philosophy? So I think time will tell, and I think we'll we'll we'll figure out what the right decision is. But for now,
you know, Meet Mafia podcast run Apple, Spotify, every major podcasting platform on YouTube as well. We post all of our video interviews on YouTube.
I am at meet mafia Brett on Twitter. Harry is at meet mafia Harry, which is where we post our rants, our soapbox moments. Probably the most unhinged content is gonna be on Twitter. That's where we started too, so it's our favorite platform.
And then we do have our, nose to tail protein powder company as well called Noble Origins,
which is just noble origins dot com.
25 grams of beef protein
per scoop. We have a chocolate flavor, vanilla flavor. There's a little bit of collagen, some colostrum, some grass fed organs in there too. So if you are interested in kinda developing that nose to tail approach but want something that actually tastes delicious, that's why we made our supplement product. But, but, yeah, man, those are the best places to reach us right now. Right on. Brett, Harry, thanks so much for joining us.
Thanks, Abel. Thanks for having us, man. It's been a pleasure.
Abel James: Thanks for hanging out with us today on the show. Next up, we have some original music that I actually wrote with a past guest of this show, mister Denny Hemmingsen, who's been the band leader of the Tim McGraw Band for about 2 decades now. He's a great friend of mine, an incredible musician, and I hope you dig this tune called thank God for the blues. Here we go.
Unknown: Life weighs me down with complication.
Every trouble
that I can't carry
very far.
So I set my worries down and find salvation
at that old backdoor,
backstreet
smoky bar
when I
just need some sanctuary,
When that cold crew world is not between my knees,
then you'll know
just where you'll find me.
I'll be right here singing songs
of sweet relief.
And I'm thanking god for the flu
to heal my soul and set me free.
Now sing it with me if your heart's bamboos.
Thank god
for the food.
So I flip a light
on that dusty, musty case.
Raise that ragged lid and smell the ear.
Slide
my fingers up those trusty,