Hi, and welcome to another episode of the improving Berry podcast where I interview experts in health and wellness.
And this week, I got to speak with Amaranato,
who was a monk and is now an executive leadership coach and we spoke about spirituality,
about what this is all about, about being a monk,
about knowing,
and lots more of that spirituality
stuff and,
you know,
I hope, we don't lose you, during the conversation. Just stick with it for a bit.
I think you'll get some value out of it as I also
try to, get it down to practical tips that we can use here in our physical plane.
Also, you might have noticed that I don't have a YouTube channel anymore.
That is because YouTube does not respect free speech.
They flagged my conversation with Belinda Fettke as misinformation.
And because I didn't want to take that down, they took my channel down. So go ahead and find that episode in your podcast player. It's very interesting.
Improvingbarry.com
is still available, and you can go there to see all the episodes and also all the transcripts of all the episodes.
And I wanna thank you for sticking with me in this journey and for learning with me about health and wellness.
Now without further ado, here is Amaronato.
So I have really, been looking forward to this conversation because, we've we've put it in the calendar.
For a long time. And finally, we we get to meet.
I've been seeing your content on on LinkedIn and other places as well.
And it's very interesting,
because,
you know, you're now in this
space of, mindful nurse and helping people and companies
And before, you were on your own journey,
of, spirituality
and actually,
wasn't monk, right, as you just said as well.
So maybe we can start with that story, you know, a bit of a a summary of, how that came to be. Why why and how did you become a monk? Yeah. I can, yeah, I can definitely do that. And I I do it in quite a short way, if that's alright, because it's been said a lot of times before as well. But I'll just I can set the thing for sure. That's that's great.
Yeah. Let's do that. Okay.
So,
actually, I've done everything backwards
in my life.
So, actually, I started off as a,
technical support manager in a computer firm.
At at a very young agent was was pretty successful with that.
And in the recession in the in the eighties,
that all went
And,
and,
what happened was I I sort of went to see a friend And that friend said, why don't you go to university? And I thought, oh,
really?
And and suddenly it hit me. Oh, yeah. I ought to go to university. So I thought, what what can I study?
And I got this book given to me on on a artificial intelligence,
and it and it really rang true to me. I thought about how I might be able to bring my computer, sir, skills into social good. So this started me on a church directory
of really trying to understand myself.
Really trying to see,
who am I, why am I here?
And by the time the end of that degree, I realized I didn't wanna work in a computer industry anymore.
I I I wanted to do something else. And,
I've had this opportunity
to go and work in
the center for cognitive neuroscience
in
the University of Davis.
So I started this journey of traveling,
and it it took me well, it took me around the world, really. Pretty much overland hitchhiking.
Traveling, meeting people.
And,
on that on that tour, the idea was, well,
Let's let's learn how to meditate. I'm gonna do that in India.
Actually, it happened that it was in Perth in Australia.
Where I did it. And I did it because I needed money.
I found it a job in a newspaper which said to do telephone sales. I turned up
They said you'll be good at doing door knocking, you know, knocking on people's store,
charity money.
And I used to sneak back in the evening and sleep on the floor, because I wanted to save money. Anyway, somebody caught me, of course, and I went back to stay in this person's house.
And they said, you know,
yeah, come and stay with us for a while. And I looked in I looked in their in their little
library in in there. This little book on
little library and a little book on meditation. I said, when I go to India, I'm gonna do that.
And he said, oh, you don't need to do that.
I was working for a drug rehabilitation center. They said, this is how we get the mothers who are drug addicts off
of the drug.
And, I can help you join that course because it's also open to the public. So I did that course.
And, they they kept coming up to me. It was a 10 day, very hardcore course, all sitting, no talking, no reading, no writing, no nothing.
And they kept coming out to me and saying, you're smiling and you're happy. I said, yeah, I found what I'm looking for.
And that that that was the trajectory.
It just kept me going. So from that moment onwards, really, I wanted to become a monk.
It took a few more years, quite a few more years, but basically
I came back to England. I lived in a meditation center again for a few years.
And then I couldn't stop the urge, and I
I decided to become a monk in a monastery in England near near Heathrow Airport
out in the English countryside.
And I didn't leave there for 10 years.
Wow.
And then I did. And then I and then I traveled another 5 years. I I became a freelance monker
and actually ended up back in Perth in Australia.
And, that's also where I stopped being a monk.
As well.
So I I felt although that was not the plan, but
in retrospect, that's what happened. I sort of circled
And I'm I'm often asked, you know, like, how did you become a monk and how did you end? That's the that's one part of the story. The other part of it is is what I call clarity
or knowing,
like, as deep sense of trust,
not thinking,
not,
working it out on with paper and pen, not writing a list, but just knowing this is what you need to do. So that's what I needed to do. I needed to join the monastery,
and I needed to leave.
The you felt like you needed to do that. Felt It's really kind of it's I know I know that's a bit picky, but it wasn't felt. It was
it was annoying
and maybe a felt sense goes with that.
So, yeah, in English, the word is calling, And I think that that's really the it's the appropriate word. It's like, I haven't got much hair you could have, but it's as if you pick pick pick me up by my hair and dumped me somewhere that it was that clear. That's what I had to do.
And,
Later in the monastery, I get the Abbott used to use this word intuitive awareness, which is
which is not intuition because intuition can sometimes lay off, but it's this sense of of aware of what your
really aware of your of knowing.
Yeah. And
that is a very difficult thing to do, I think, for most people.
To
get to the place where you,
get to the knowing.
So
clear all the gunk out, let's say, and actually
give into what you know that you need to do. Yes. And this and the surprising thing is that
you can also do that with all the gunk,
and and and that that like, there were in the in the monastery, there was just enough of removal of that to start to see it clearly.
And,
but even before that, you see that that calling that I had was with all the gunker, and that's what was surprising.
And still surprising to me now is
because way before that, you already had a calling to do
meditation. Right. That's right. You said, well, now I found what I I was looking for, but did you already know what you were looking for? No. I I knew that I was really unhappy,
very unhappy,
and that I'd had success already.
Yeah. And So Something was missing. Something was missing.
Something was clearly missing.
And,
we we could call it happiness.
We could call it truth.
I mean, I've got a whole different language now, but at that point, it was like,
I mean, I'm called Ameronato now, but it my my my name before that was Morris and Morris was pretty unhappy.
Yeah. And he didn't know why he was unhappy.
And and and some of that, I must say, was was physical.
But alright. I know you speak a lot about health and all of that, and some of that I think was also health.
But the the 2 or so intertwined now. I I'm not sure I could really
separate them out. Like, one leads to the other.
Yeah. Can you speak a bit more, to that about the health? Yeah. I guess what yeah. I guess what I what I think now is,
that I had I had,
I had mold in my system. Fungers,
Yeah.
And, that what I know now, I've I've
I had that.
I've had it a couple of times.
Twice pretty seriously.
But as a young person,
I I I think I was,
susceptible to that. That in the research, they say there's a genetic component.
So some people are more genetic, and I think I'm one of them. I've never done the genetic, but it's pretty obvious.
That yeah. Yeah. The and so,
and and that that can attract you to eating completely the wrong food.
Because the fungus wants to be wants sugar, basically. And so
it you know, carb, high carb diet,
and I didn't really know all of that
at all. Even as a monk, I didn't know it.
So I had a
so,
Yeah. That really,
impacted on me on me and on my thinking because,
different moles, particularly like black mold poisoning, black mold, which is what where you get in your showers and neurotoxin. So that means when you breathe it in, it goes straight in your brain and can give you all sorts of mental
problems, which
on the outside
look like mental illness.
And on the inside, have nothing to do with that whatsoever.
You you lose your body map, which means is you knock things over and wobble and
you get brain fog and all this type of stuff,
depression
because it's a it's an inflammation.
Yeah. The disease.
So I think some of that kick started out. And, of course, when you go traveling,
you're physical, you're breathing, you know, it's all you you're actually keeping yourself quite healthy or I was, you know, so some in some ways, I sort of came off that a little bit.
And I was very lucky when I was traveling. I'm I met early on a a really nice man, in New Zealand.
You just told me stop eating that rubbish food and start eating healthy.
And I and I got it. I mean, I mean, it he he he was re really kind. I mean, how I met him was just crazy. So I was hitchhiking in in America.
In California.
I got picked up by this what would be considered very straight
middle class American couple. Right?
Who had who'd met this guy in New Zealand.
And and they said to me, when you go to New Zealand, me go to this guy, knock on his door and say, whoever I can't remember their names now. Go and meet them.
You know, go meet this guy, and that's what I did. And he was one of those again, one of those people in my life that gave me that nudge.
So I did start
a living healthily, even though I was living on the road.
Yeah. Yeah. Traveling. Yeah. What did that look like? So he said you should eat
better Yeah. What what was that for you back then? For me, it was for me back then, it was just re I mean, it was actually really simple stuff. It was like having you know, like having a good breakfast or like having a musley breakfast,
yeah, cooking and then just cooking my own food on the road.
You know, and at that time that time,
I was, I was eating meat. And then after the meditation course, I stopped eating meat.
And drinking, actually.
And,
yeah, it was just like a fresh fridge, fresh
food,
always fresh from the market. Never really buying food. It was always cooking it myself.
Yeah. You know, that that type of stuff making, and particularly in Australia, I was making my own bread, but this Oh. Damper bread, which is really simple to make.
Yeah.
So so all of that.
Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, actual,
real whole foods or not packaged foods. No. None of that. Very, very, very, very, very little of that. Yeah. Yeah. That will get you pretty far. Yeah. So that did actually in a way that got me pretty far. And I think, you know, when you said about clearing out that gunk and all of that,
yeah, that's that was that was part of it. So you sort of cleanse your body, and then you see another level of it.
Yeah. I think, I see that lots of it people that I talked to on this channel as well, as they become more healthy,
they suffer less in their physical body. And then they get more, let's say, room
to grow mentally as well. Yes. And to,
you know, explore spirituality and things like that. Yeah. You usually see that trajectory.
Yeah. Become physically healthy, and then you can grow Yes.
In in the spiritual self as well. It's true. And for me, I I, it's been intertwined. So I've got ill a lot. I've got ill as a month quite a few times. I got this
And there's part of that clearing out cycle that peeling the onion back. So as a monk, I got,
I got Mercury poisoning, so that's from my amalgam fillings.
Oh, yeah. So I came back from traveling, and, of course, I hadn't
been to the dentist in a while. And then I went to a dentist that
probably like to
to to give fillings.
And so,
yeah, so my I I got these fillings in, and then I started to get very up very and if you meditate as well,
when you have a mercury filling with a piece of metal in it, I mean, 2 different metals, you get a bat you get a charge in your saliva.
So every time you swallow it, you you actually get this not only do you get toxic poisoning, but you get a charge.
And so I I went quite quite crazy
with that as well as a monk, and I didn't I couldn't understand that at all. And luckily enough, I had a psychotherapy,
as a monk. And,
and, the psychotherapist said, you know, have you got As part of our initial conversation, have you got, you know, fillings and blah blah, all of the health check, mild health check. Yeah.
I said yes. And I then she said, oh, maybe you should start drinking some water and seeing how that is. And, oh, yeah, that's really good.
Hopefully a lot better.
And then I and then, and then I went and had some
of this bio resonant stuff where they can test your body and see how you are. And then I that that person works out. Oh, yeah. You're you're
your fillings are really missing with your system.
So as a monk, I actually had them all removed.
And and when I I mean, I used to be able to massage my mouth and, and I'd I I would go pretty
my eyes would go crazy.
People knew me in the car that I remember once,
particularly one monk said, oh, yeah. Here he goes again. But the the amazing thing was, and this is where it ties up with spirituality is that when you start developing awareness,
yeah, and the ability to observe yourself,
it's quite amazing because you can you can actually see these things happening.
So that that was the I would say it's
kind of a funny word to use, but it was the grace of awareness
that actually saved me. I think if I hadn't have had that, I would have been in a really difficult situation.
Yeah. And through that,
I could actually witness and observe and be with the terrible things that happened because of that poisoning.
Which was I was really nutty. And,
I like, I couldn't control my anger because my body was full of toxins. You know, my liver was really struggling.
I'm saying all these words, liver, and toxins, and all that. I'm not a doctor, but, you know, this is all self spirit
through my own experience.
Yeah.
And,
when I had those amalgams taken out, which I had which I had done with intravenous,
I'd I went to a special dentist,
and,
I had intravenous vitamin c, which was kind of a miracle in itself because I didn't suffer from having 4 amalgam
She's taken out all at the same time
and and, well, basically walked out.
When I when I went back to the monastery that everybody looked me said,
well, you're you're so calm. You're you're you're so different. My,
cirrhosis
pretty much stopped overnight,
that moodiness stopped.
So these were, like, revelations on the path You know what I mean? I mean, it's just,
you know, and,
the research done in Japan that, you know, around pregnant women not, you know, they're not allowed to have it,
at all,
because of what it does.
You know, mad hatter's disease, you know, that was from Mercury poisoning. Yeah.
So it's it's interesting and I you know, so I did
I did get ill quite a lot
in the monastery. I,
you know, me many times I wrecked my back, my knee,
It's a whole list of things, but the interesting thing again is this ability to be aware of
what's going on with your body.
And some of it courses, genetics.
Some of it is,
the food that you put in. I didn't have a choice of the food, as a monk, I was a beggar, so I had a begging bowl.
And oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I had no money.
So
these treatments also came miraculously
as well. One time I got,
yeah, I got, shingles
which was all time.
Pretty painful. And I
I I didn't know what to do, and then I I was sleeping in a sleeping in my room in a monastery and woke up 1 woke up that night, and it just said, you must go to this,
acupuncture shop.
In town.
Oh, I went there. You you got that beamed down in Yeah. Yeah. I knew the shop was there. It's not that I didn't know it was there, but it was, like, clear go to this place.
Right. And
I went to the place and he cleared it up.
It was really painful, you know, what he did, but it was
He pretty much did it.
And,
same same with the the the
the amalgam teeth.
And,
yeah, and then again again in Australia. So I I I got black mold poisoning. I got it
very seriously after I left a monastery,
bizarrely, I lived on a organic farm.
In the north part of England. And because of the spores from the
the the,
the waste there, it it's easy to get into a building.
Oh, yeah. So it got into the building, and then I I got ill and I couldn't work out what it was at all.
Because I had no idea. But, again, I I had some,
tests this by a residence done. And even the person that was testing me didn't know what it was, but We both looked it up on the internet, and then it was black mold, and then I worked we started to work it out. And at that point in time, there was a lot lot less
around
diagnosis
or
that you could even have such a thing. I bought this book
from,
the Chicago floods written by the with his couple, there were mister and missus super fit, you know, And then overnight, they just went flat. They they nearly died. And they wrote this book and I started to read it and
follow what they were doing. And then and then but my body got a lot lot a lot lot worse, and I was I just basically
everything went like I I only could eat.
So lit. I was only eating greens,
lentils,
some eggs,
like a low food map or
gluten free,
low inflammation. Anyway, yeah, and I didn't I know it's still not well. I still couldn't clear out my system. And as a monk, I was still traveling and teaching and
sharing and all the rest of it. And, I I'd be going to this,
counseling center,
sorry, community center
Yeah. And I was offering meditation there to a group of people. And some because as a monk, I didn't I couldn't drive either. Somebody picked me up very kindly and took me there each week. So I've been doing this for about 3 or 4 weeks, and I was saying, you know, I could really do with
a naturopath or somebody to just give me another pointer. And she says, oh, I'm a natural person. Here's my here's here's my files.
And, and and when we get to the center, I'm gonna make you something and teach you about how to do
food combinations so that you can actually,
reduce the mold and improve your health.
Which there you go sync synchronicity. Synchronicity.
Yeah. And that that that really did help because,
I lost so much weight
during that time. Yeah.
Yes, sir. So both these things,
black mold or mold portion and in general,
And also mercury poisoning are vicious things
that,
basically induce,
mental illness
by
poisoning the brain and depriving the brain of the nutrients.
And, you know,
I think it's, what you said is very interesting.
That you had the
capacity to witness this within yourself Yep. And and feel the changes because
There are many case studies also for people with mercury poisoning
that are in their normal lives such as busy working,
don't feel what's actually happening, but everything goes awry. Yeah. They just go nuts and they end up in in in the
psych psychiatric work, for instance,
because they have a mental illness that they've gone completely crazy. Yeah. Whilst
it's just their body is malfunctioning because they are poison. Yeah. But they don't have the capacity to actually feel that. No. And and it's so so it's so subtle with these types of things because they just speed up the system a little bit.
Yeah. And so your system is always fast. It's always trying to push out the toxins. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. And luckily enough in a way, although I was really busy in the monastery, it was also a busy place, and you know,
but I had enough time to slow down
to to see that something is not or or listen
listen in and see that. And that was
that was remark that was really remarkable.
You know?
Yeah. It it it Like, it's like a superpower. It is a superpower. There's no doubt about it. It's a superpower. Yeah. It is a super power, you know, and, because these things are inflammation, you know, they they just do all these weird things to your body.
You know?
So,
this ability to really notice
what's going on and be, you know, like, and also be aware of your mental thoughts. Not, you know, a lot of meditation is about being aware of your body, but you you can also be aware of your thoughts a bit like clouds in the sky coming and going,
you know, and so if you can watch that, you can also like,
No. I was gonna use the word disattached, but I don't I I I mean that in a in a in not a way of trying to get rid of or or or not sense, but just to really see how they move.
So I could I could actually I could watch myself, and I have done quite a number of times, watch myself go quite off, mentally, quite off.
You know? And I, you know, and I could say I could tell you when I'm having,
an, like, anxiety,
yeah, because something is going on or whether it's an induced by through the body,
Right. You know, and through the mind. And, you know, I I used to be able to walk into a building when it was very sensitive, and I could just put my finger on my pulse
here on my neck and just watch it go up. And you, you know, like because once you get mold poisoning, you you can't really go back in a mold building anymore. You know, whenever I'm traveling now,
right, with Airbnb, the first thing I have to ask is, have you had any ever any water damage in the place? Yeah.
And was it was it was it was super sensitive to it? Yeah. Yeah. I can smell it through. I can I can sense it through walls? It contracts my system. I could actually Wow. Probably even tell you where it is. I've done it a few times, but I'm I'm living in the Netherlands and
who went to,
down by the seaside into a sort of a vacation hut.
And as soon as I got in, I felt this No. Not a game. And, you know, like, because it's so bad. It, you know, and I just started,
walking around the rooms and then that, oh, yeah. There's a bit in here. There's a bit in there, pull it back. There is there's the water damage
because we That's very interesting. They've So so Sorry. You know, I'm just,
guessing here. Maybe you still have a bit of mold in you Oh. That reacts to that mold. Totally. Because it's a living thing for us. No. No. I do. I I'm sure that I I you know, I'm I'm I'm living with it.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I I work with that through my diet and through probiotics
and being gluten free.
And,
info, you know, like, inflammation,
low,
inflammation food. So food that reduces inflammation like sweet potatoes and
Yeah. And then if it's tricky here, particularly like the Netherlands, this this winter was quite wet, you know, and I'm surround always wet. Well, I know. But, you know, so, yeah, so I'm so it's kinda crazy. I mean, I I have this thing with water and thing, and I live
surrounded by water, you know, everywhere I I am here is is water.
So
you know,
and actually the house that I'm in now actually got also had mold, and I'm I missed it. Because it was such a small leak.
Yeah. I missed it, and then and then,
few years into this help.
Yep. The whole house again had to be renovated.
And, and I and I was I was yeah. I mean, I actually did the
I did I cleaned the house myself. I bought a full mask and the whole thing and cleaned it myself.
And that time, when I got, again, affecting me really badly,
I did it differently, which is I'd learned this breathing technique called Bouteco.
So and, it's a really powerful technique,
and I use that to clear out my system. I hardly took any
I took a I took some,
which is controversial for some people, but I took very high dose of vitamin C liposomatic.
I made my own one. Yep. And then,
and,
and and that time,
like, it's really interesting. Like, I I
I I didn't know what was a matter with me because I was getting I was getting tired again, and I couldn't work out. And I thought, I'm living in this fantastic house. There can't be any mold here. This warehouse could no way could it have mold because
it just the work the design of it, but, actually, it was
it it was ripped the whole,
yeah, bathroom and it creeps in underneath, which is no way I would
been able to,
to sense that. But and it was just slowly
getting into my system, and I woke up. Oh, no. I was going to bed 1 evening.
And I lying down and all of a sudden, I just had this complete
shaking, when in, and my throat started to close.
And,
and I was just having this sort of massive shock and I
And I'd remembered from boteco that if you have an asthma attack, you can hold your breath. Right?
You don't breathe more. You hold your breath. So this awareness kicked in again. This observer,
like, oh, yeah. Your body's in trauma. It's probably having something,
like, and and you're worried.
But just hold your breath.
So I held so I held my breath while my while my partner was on the phone to the to the the hospital.
And,
and that opened up my
open up my throat.
Yeah. And then I, you know, relax and I shook for a long another long period of time. And then they said, oh, you better go to the hospital. So he went down to hospital. They measured my blood pressure and everything. It was all good.
That was it.
You know? And then I was
they just went back on the same stuff again and
cleared it out my system,
but it was the boutique that really that that that was,
really powerful.
Yeah.
Way of working with that.
Okay.
So so this keeps coming back to this,
awareness of body awareness and, and and awareness of self. Right? Maybe we can talk a bit about that. Let's do it. About,
mindfulness
meditation. So, for instance, myself, I've experimented with meditation. Right? So we all I know it's good for me. I need to do it. It's so difficult for me to actually go and sit down and do it.
I've tried apps. I've tried many
ways and methods and
I've tried to, you know, some say, well, you need to clear your mind because the goal is to not have thoughts and how to say, no. That's ridiculous because you know, you cannot do that. That's right.
So for me,
I go off and on, also because it's very difficult for me to,
find the reason why why why should I do this? Right?
So
Why
did and and do you do meditation?
How do you do it? And and how does it work? Right.
So I started off with meditation and maybe all that story was about that I I suffered a lot.
I suffered a lot.
And and I wanted, and I wanted, somewhere in me, wanted to know why am I suffering?
Yeah. And what is this all about?
And that's how that's how I got into meditation. And I first started off with this bodied practice,
and and I I'm I'm probably have already worked it out. I have an extreme
personality. It's a lot softer now, but in the beginning, I had an extreme personality.
You know, so and, and I had a warrior like mine,
yeah, even with all my fears and worries and all the rest of it. I was like a warrior, and I was like, I so when I when I did this 10 day meditation course, bam, that's what, you know, I really that's what I wanted to do.
So I did it. Right? Yeah. And that and, in the Western
mindset, you know, we're very individualistic
so it can be really attractive.
Right, that approach if you've got this type of mindset.
Yeah. And then I started hearing, you know, if you're a good meditator, you should be able to sit still and clear your mind and I couldn't do any of that.
I couldn't I I could sit still. I trained myself to sit still because I had a warrior mind. So actually in the end, I could sit for a ridiculous amount of times. Maybe,
I don't know, I could do 3 or 4 hours. No problem at in the early days. I can't do that anymore. Oh, I don't do that anymore. No. I can't. I don't.
And then,
and,
when I got to the monastery,
right, I had this sort of meditators' mindset. Yeah. And,
the Albert would say,
would say stop meditating.
And I was like, oh, don't we're getting up at 5 o'clock in the morning to meditate, and you're telling me stop meditating because because what he noticed was I had an attitude of meditation
at a mind sale meditation.
What was it really all about?
So this idea about that you've got to clear your thoughts or be still or be quiet
is a little bit of a con.
Okay. Right.
I've caught and then you'll and then you'll say to me, yeah, but that's alright for you to say, you know, you spend hours of being quiet.
Sitting still.
So I guess what I found helpful is these there is these, like, 8 week mindfulness course. They're quite they can be really good because they sort of set set a foundation, but it is a bit of a muscle
But what I really learned what I learned in the monastery
and,
was this thing called the sound of silence.
So right now, I hear that.
Alright. As we're talking right now, we're doing this interview.
I can hear this. It's a high pitched tone.
And,
When I joined them, when I when I joined the monastery, I,
as a monk, you you could you move from where you are as a lay person into where you live with the monks. And when I moved into this room, it was in a corridor at that time.
I thought there was something wrong with the heating system because it would there was this noise, and I thought the heating, but actually it was this sound of silence. And then I heard the abbot of the monastery
start speaking about this practice and silence.
And the thing with the sound of silence is you can't make it happen. Right? So you can't do it willfully. You can't turn it on. You can't say,
bam, sound of silence, you can only do it by relaxation.
Right? And it doesn't matter where it is. Like, you see I'm moving my hands and body and makes no difference.
Yeah.
So and then and then what's really interesting is I've got a mind where my mind just jumps around all over the place. If I wanted to do right now, I could also be thinking about what I'm gonna have for lunch.
Isn't it nice? What you've got in your living room? You know, I'm looking at you with your video camera. Blah blah, all that sort of stuff. But the sound of silence doesn't care.
Right.
And, it's like a background to all sounds.
So so so that's a tool Yes. Right? That you can use.
But what is to you? What is the goal of medication? That's the that's the crazy thing. You see, there isn't a goal. Right?
And there isn't one because it's an it's an end goal.
It's a non goal.
And and this is where we get really
so mindfulness is is to produce a goal.
You know, like, you go to a mindfulness course because you wanna reduce stress or fix your arm or your elbow or your back or whatever it is. We're always looking for something. Yeah. Then you fix that and you think, well, I've done with mindfulness.
Right? Or
or or you come out and say, I feel really calm.
But that's not what how I learn about. My calm is the starting place.
Karm is the ability to start to notice what's happening. So I want I wanna know why am I suffering, why am I here. So the ultimate goal
of
of of, of awareness
is to become a is to recognize awareness itself. Right.
And that's where freedom is. That's where liberation is. That is where you're not touched by anything
at all. Ever.
Never have been.
That's ultimate freedom, Pete, whatever you wanna call it. Most people don't give a shit about this, to be honest, I think. But,
I do.
And,
and I think once you recognize that, then it's no longer shit. It's like it's it's like a diamond. It's it's it's It's so
magnificent and
and,
mind blowing and and,
and and resourceful and incredible.
I mean, I wanna use Superlatives,
but, I mean, but this the awareness itself has none of these.
Awareness itself is completely and utterly cool.
I did I can give you an example. Maybe it's a bit of a Dutch example, but I think it's a good one. So 2 days ago, it was King's Day here in the Netherlands, and it's a big thing here, you know, and everybody takes their stuff and sells it on the street. I love going and you get all these bargains. I've got mega bugs. So you get closed for a euro, and I bought all sorts of things. I bought It doesn't matter about the things, but I bought all these deals over the last few years. And I thought, oh, great. I'm gonna get up early and on my bike cycling to the mark. I get there around 9 o'clock.
Walk around. Nothing.
Walk around again. Nothing.
I think, come on one more time.
Nothing.
And I think, okay. Dammit. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get on the train and go to the next town. So I got on the train, go to next Wow. There's so many people, so many stalls. Nothing.
Nothing.
And then and then this awareness,
like, just trips me a little bit. It says,
Can you still see that you're peaceful here?
That you you don't need
these things, or you might do, but you don't have to. Isn't this fun?
And then I had such a lovely day.
I did. I came home with nothing. That's the 1st year. I come home with absolutely nothing.
Right? And I was beaming from ear to ear.
All I had was a nice,
chocolate,
vegan ice cream, gluten free cone. Yeah. Right?
But
the the the the what what what when you taste this
I mean, taste the game is a These are all funny words, but when you see this freedom, I mean,
everything everything else
pals in into insignificant. And, of course, you have to look after your body. I'm not I'm not denying that. I do a lot to look after my body.
You know,
and and
but freedom itself, so I'm I'm
trying to wrap my mind about around this awareness. Right? So we we we've gone to, what would be the goal of meditation for you? Yeah. And you're describing
awareness
which brings you freedom
and all these Yeah. It's freedom. Things like
It is freedom. Okay. Not brings is.
What is the awareness
of? Yes. No. No. There's no of. Of nothing? No. There's not is no of. There's no okay. Because you see in the world that we live in, I mean, this this is a really interesting discussion.
Right? So,
And,
also, it can't be a discussion in some ways because you have to recognize it for yourself. So all I can do is point
Yeah. So most of the world that we live in is focused on an object, a subject, and an object. So you're Yeah. Subject,
object in this, and the other way around, or whatever it is in the market, you're looking at the carrots. That's an object in your subject.
Well, awareness itself is pure subjectivity,
so there is no object.
Yeah. Get your head around that. So it's it's so it's just it's not it's knowing.
It's there is no distance, no time, no space, No nothing. That's it. No qualities.
So, That's it. Yeah. And so
we label things
I don't wanna use Buddhist words too much, but it's quite helpful just in this way. So in Buddhism, they use this thing called Nava Ruper, which means name and form. So everything
in the condition world, everything that you see and look around has a name and a form, but awareness itself is is not that. And it's not beyond. It's not angels
or or, any of those things.
It's not it's not not vibrations
or tones
or
not even a sound of silence.
No. It's it's it's Not a thing at all. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And the interesting thing about this is that if you look at adult development, particularly by Keegan,
Keegan's Adult Development of development theory, which is the sort of stages approaches, but you could also look at it as circles.
So,
you know,
that this is also the same way Maslow's
hierarchy, which is, or, you know, is represented as a triangle.
Which was not is not his own work.
He never did the triangle.
He never did that. You know, there's nothing. And that was done by a management consultant to say that you could sell it.
Right? Okay. Yeah, it it the the the,
another barry,
I forgot. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot his surname, but another barrier is written a book on it called transcendence,
and he he describes
that Maslow's hierarchy as a boat with a sale.
And so and and it's not that's much more again about this awareness,
about
actualization,
self actualization, which of course has no self.
So
so it's, I was also thinking of being a little bit playful Yeah. In a way, like, you know, sir, you're saying improving Barry, but, actually, there is no barrier to improve.
Right?
But but, you know, ultimately,
you're complete
as you are right now
Yeah. And as we both know,
with illness and when the health goes,
there's something to attend to, which is kind of paradoxical.
So one minute, I was saying
pure subjectivity in an minute, I'm saying no. There's an object and you better look after it.
They go together,
and it and it's important you need both. You can become a meditator and disembodied,
you know, because it's all a mental phenomena.
So let's let's follow that,
that thread a little bit. As in, you say, you know, improving barrier is no barrier to
improve ultimately.
So so what is it? As in, you know, we always want to label things.
Let me try with an example. So for instance,
I I had a last year, I had a psychedelic experience with,
magic mushrooms.
A heroic dose was my first one,
and so far as well, still did one. Was an amazing experience, and I know for everybody, this is, that that has done that. It can be different Yeah. Different experience.
But for me, what happened was I got sucked into this,
realm of,
amazing
you know, my body was gone. Yes. I was,
I was one with everything.
So not not not a distinct thing that you could
you know, point to or talk not not a barrier. Yeah. But a I was just part of all the things. Yeah. Yeah. That's And I was going through all the things. Yeah. And there was no time and and space.
So,
it it's impossible to describe. Yes. That's right. Kinda.
So you have to experience that for yourself. And for everybody, it's very, very different as well. Not everybody has this particular experience.
But
to me, what is happening there
is that here I am talking to you now as a Berry
and I think
I have no clue, but this is my my theory at the moment is that I am and sort of an incarnation
of that all and everything that I've experienced earlier.
In order to experience more things as a barrier experience, you know, human emotions, a table, talking to you,
a coffee,
grief, joy, all the things
so that I can have that experience because as
a
nothing that I experienced there where there is no time, no form, no nothing, I cannot experience those things. Yeah. Well said, So that I think that is the point and that is why this is now here, but that also means that I am actually that
nothing.
And right now,
this is all made up as a barrier Yes.
And the u. Yes. And and Both of us are part of the NAF issue. We are kind of the same ultimately.
Exactly.
That that's what I think is happening, and I think that what you describing as this knowing If. As this awareness is that awareness
of just that? Correct. But I just described it. And what you just described is to described in many religions.
Yes.
They all
describe the same They will describe the same thing, and then certainly in a mystical thing. And so the thing is is can you experience that right now
No. Yeah.
So I so my my I can remember. Yeah. So that's right. So I'm I'm wondering would it be like to experience it right now?
So can can you experience it? Yeah. Right now. Yeah. Here. You can. Yeah. Here. Right now. Yeah. It's here. It's present. It's present. It's not a wow. There's nothing wow about it at all. It's just it's here.
And and I'm not claiming anything.
Renato is not claiming anything at all, but it is here. It's always here. It's it's never not gone.
And it but now I know, but the the I am distracted. Oh, of course. My my barriers. Yes. That's right. Exactly. And by the world, which is, of course, the point because that's why I'm here. I'm not sure about that.
No? Okay.
But that's interesting. Wondering whether it's actually about that you are that that you have the the barrier allows you to recognize
recognize
the nothing that
and that's the gift.
And that's the gift of being human and the gift of developing
So, like, as a baby, we come in.
And, when you look at a baby and you you see yourself, you know, you look at a baby when an adult looks at baby, we all go, woohoo, But why is that? I think that's because there's no judgment. You know, the baby is also in doesn't have a prefrontal cortex until much later, 7 or 8,
Right? So then, you know, you're you're into this just,
sort of seeing each other. And then when we come as adults, we're much more like now, you know, we could. We're not doing that now, but we could be juggling, you know, and Renato's
doing this and barriers like that and then all conflict and all the rest of it, you know, and then we can get stuck there. So these adults stages of development are quite helpful for that because, you know, the research says that not a lot of people really move beyond
themselves. So they're always relying on other people's points of view,
you know, and and, that
but we we can move beyond that, and we can we can recognize we can use our our mind to
to recognize
who we truly are. And then we're free of all of that, and we can go on burying or Amerenar to him. Of course, we need to do that in the world.
That's that's that's that's that's true. And and these ex and I these experiences that one can have on different substances or breath work or whatever it is. Yeah. Their peak experiences,
right,
and the
Who who we see we are, Freedom itself is not a peak experience,
because you can't nobody can live in a peak experience. No athlete leaves at peak experience. No. Nobody.
So it it's it's actually incredibly normal.
It's so normal.
It's so normal. I mean, it was a ridiculous thing to say, but I think I think you get what I mean. It's just like, Yeah. Yeah. You know,
I'm, no, I'm just looking at my window right now again, and I'm looking at my cherry tree and the birds are in a cage here. Oh, this is it. You know, and I can also I can use my mind to imagine that right now, there's a lot of people also suffering, you know, and,
bodies are not well and all the rest of it. You know?
And,
so it's not that I'm
I'm calm or peaceful all the time. You know, Amerinato goes up and down a bit. You know? Yeah.
But you can't tap into that awareness.
I wouldn't I don't I I wanna be careful with language, yeah, here. Yeah. And say you can't tap into it. You are it.
Right. So tap is a movement, and tap is a tap is a mind movement, and recognition is
all all
is different. It's interesting.
See, the root of the word mindfulness is sati, which means to remember
Right? So in some ways, all you're doing is you're remembering
who you are
and who you are is not who you think you are. I mean, ultimately, we're not who we think we are. You know, I am a Renato, and I live in the Netherlands and, you know, I do this and I do that. Yeah. That that
that's all true on the condition level, but you know, and the 2 it's really important that I'm not saying one or the other.
Right? I'm not saying
exclude condition and go for unconditioned or
stay in the unconditioned. I'm I'm saying it's both. It's it's it's it's there's no separation
There's no separation between form and emptiness. The the the the the the the
inherently
together and,
but in in that in recognition
of that, that's that's
really
totally free. Yeah.
Yeah. And and,
I guess for most people that are, you know, busy being themselves,
in their work in in doing all sorts of human things
and,
are suffering a little bit because like you said, you know, maybe their bodies aren't working well or,
you know, we're basically all eating poisonous things all the time. Our our environment is difficult
so I guess
I'm trying to to get at is
that it's it's very difficult for people to
I have to put it in in in the languages, of course, that we use. To recognize Yes. That that this
that this is the case. It it it is, and it isn't because it's so it's also completely
It's also so simple.
Right? So, like,
I mean, like, I work as an executive leadership coach. Right?
And with some of my clients that stay around really long enough, we get to this point.
We we go there, and they're really busy. You know, I I remember one one person
one client I coached, you know, and they were
so busy, you know, even,
like, back to back meetings all the time. And and then after, you know,
couple of years sort of starting from scratch, from no mindfulness,
they they were sort of laughing between meetings. And then when the pandemic happened,
Right?
Like, we weren't having worry meetings.
Like, we weren't having about, you know, and they have a lot of staff. They've
few hundred staff and a big budget.
You know, we weren't having meetings about worry. We were having about meeting about concern and compassion and how we're gonna get you know, how was they gonna get second monitors to their
at home and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. Right?
Be because we'd already
you know,
we'd seen through complexity. And this is, you see, like,
in, like, another way of looking at this is through complexity theory.
Yeah. Again, I'm no expert on this, but what I what I do know about complexity is that you have to see the whole system.
Right? So you just see complexity, Bam.
So it doesn't matter how complex your situation is.
If you can observe the whole situation, you'll find it'll it'll you're you it's simple. Very simple, in fact. You just observe the whole situation. Well, then there's If you can zoom out. Yeah. That's it.
So it doesn't matter how complex your situation is, whatever you struggle with. There's plenty of people I've known that come to the monastery been in horrific situations,
you know,
from the fulcrans war, from wars,
you know, I had
a had a somebody from,
but not say the country, but anyway, that was making bombs and and,
and all sorts of different things. And, somehow, they they also work up to this. And, you know, and also the other way, which is, you know, living a
pretty mundane, boring life with nothing going on. Also, they work So there's no there's not a particular life. I mean, suffering does help, I must say.
If if you if it as a driver. As a driver, it it's like it. For some well, this realm that we live in in the human realm is a realm of of change.
Right? That's what seems to be constant.
Yeah. So if you if you can and that that's a very speedy way of getting to freedom and peace.
Because, you know, you you you keep generating friction. So how you can escape the friction, you can
escape
the friction, conventionally speaking, by by becoming the unchanged,
unchangeable,
and freedom is unchangeable,
immovable
because it's out of time and space. So there's there's no change. It's here and now. That's it. So you're out of it.
You know? But the, you know, I've just been diagnosed
last year. I was diagnosed with glaucoma,
right, which is, you know, I've lost a bit of vision in my eye.
Because of that.
And, and same thing, you know, like, so how do I use all these skills to do that? You know, well, I've got a pretty, you know, pushy personality in that way. I'm gonna find
the best, you know, and I found this fantastic
online community called fit size, which which are just brilliant. I mean, they're right at the cutting edge, you know, and then they told me about this special machine that you can buy to test your eye pressure at home.
Right?
Yeah. So I'm no longer it, you know, and, so then I go to
the glaucoma specialist and say, look, I'll measure my eye pressure. You know, I can tell you whether this medicine is working or not,
you know, and I can tell you how it is when I wake up in the morning or during the night or what, you know, And then I know I wanna see this person, and I wanna I want these questions answered,
right,
because this is what the research says.
You know, well, we can't, but, no, I'll, you know, all of that.
And, you know, and it's really interesting, you know, with the like, yesterday, I was You know, I didn't really have a plan for this podcast because it was just, you know, but I could know I could notice. So I've measured why I pressured last night. It was a little bit higher. I think, well, that's interesting, isn't somewhere in the unconscious mind, yeah, that you you're a little bit worried about that what what's gonna happen tomorrow. So and that'll increase your eye pressure. So there it is again.
Isn't it amazing?
You know, so you can so you either I can treat it as, like, Whether, you know, it's pretty serious. I must have missed a drop and, you know, you know, all that. Or I can think I and I can use it
to,
to to to to to stay awake, to be truly who I am. And I I'm choosing to use it in that way.
You know, and I'm I'm you know, I've got I'm on these meds, which are I'd
I would never take these meds, you know, but I but I have to at the at this point in time, I have to I know I've explored alternative
ways, and I'm taking some of that stuff as well. You know? And I wrote to this board, and I said, do you think I should stop taking Do you think I should start on these drops? And they said every all of them said no. And these are people that have done all the research and all the alternatives,
all the papers, and everything.
Okay. Well, then that what that voice can shut up for a bit.
Did you see what I mean? Like, you can, you know, you can think, oh, I know about all, you know.
So,
it is a superpower.
Yeah.
So
I'm trying to,
let's try and make this practical for the people listening to this. Right? Of it.
So so what can people do? Yes.
In their own lives Yes.
Without becoming a monk. Yeah.
For 10 years to to become more aware. Yes. What can what are some practical things?
So
One of the I think I mean, and this is so classic. I know, but it really is
so important, which is to become aware of your breathing.
Right? And it doesn't require a lot. All it requires is just
to stop now and again
a few times during the day and just notice how your breath is.
Right? And just notice, is it,
a is it higher up in your body? So it doesn't mean you breathing in your chest up here, or is it in your belly,
right,
What what it where is that? Are you breathing through your mouth? Are you breathing through your nose?
And just
allow because, you know, then that all
the the breath has such a powerful effect on the body.
So that's one thing. And then the other the other thing, I think, which is also really help for is,
is to be in nature
and to recognize how that is for you and your body.
Right? And, again, like, when you're going for a walk, just notice how is it? How does it feel? How does your body feel? And notice when it's relaxed
or tension. I mean, these are all I know these are probably really classical things and you've heard them a thousand times, but there there is a reason for it.
Is that there are really simple ways in.
And,
the sort of things that you can do with your your breathing, which have immediate, nearly immediate effect. And and I know this because I've talked to my mom at,
and it works with her, which is something like this It's called the 7 11 breathing.
Right? So you breathe out for you breathe in for 7 and out for 11. It makes your breath longer.
But it has a powerful, again, a powerful effect
of relaxing the nervous system.
The other thing that is really essential,
and we don't really speak about it at all, which is community.
And being re
learning how to be relationally with others.
Yeah. And and the reason I say that is The way that I understand the nervous system, the first part of our nervous system is socially orientated.
It's socially orientated.
So that means that you can calm down
really quickly
if you can connect socially.
And that can be very simple. That can be going into the supermarket,
looking at the supermarket person, and smiling.
As long as it's reasonably
eye to eye or something around that or just being kind to people.
Yeah. I mean, these these things seem
so ridiculously
simple, but, you know, like, I've I've brought them so many times into
business and business meetings like,
I work for a coaching company. I wonder our weakest head of faculty and leadership,
and we start our meeting. Every meeting we have
business meeting on a Monday, usually.
We start with a few minutes of mindfulness, and we finish with a few minutes of appreciation and gratitude.
And it's just amazing what that does.
For, you know, connect to your breath in your body. How are you? Not trying to get somewhere else. Just Notice how you are, and then finish off with appreciation. The potty loves appreciation.
Potty loves appreciation.
You know, and I I was lift I was listening to this,
psychotherapist
on Netflix called Stutz. It's a really beautiful.
Yeah. And one of the things he said is still stuck with me about appreciation gratitude was
just appreciate a few things.
Yeah. And then let and then let go. We can just do it now. So just come bring me bring into mind three things that you're grateful for. Right?
And notice how you feel in the body. Yeah?
And then let go of the let go of the objects. So let go of the ideas and notice how it is in the body still.
Isn't it beautiful?
Yeah. Isn't it beautiful? There you go. So that's a that's another way of accessing, you know, a a well-being.
And then if you want to
You see, the thing is the sound of silence comes through relaxation
only
and noticing.
You you can't demand it. Right? So the more that you're relaxed,
yeah, and and allow yourself to be relaxed, that you can just pay attention to your hearing and you probably hear it. Like, lots of kids hear this, and they don't even know what it is because culturally, we don't have a reference for it.
And and what is it exactly? How do you know? Do you hear me? Middle c is like, a high pitched tone?
Kinda like tinnitus. A little bit. Yes. It'll actually help with tinnitus because it'll it's like the noise cancelling
thing as well. Right.
Yeah.
And the other the other thing is if you really to to it and this is not body based or anything, but just to explore perception.
How do you mean? Well,
you know,
Let me just think. Say, just say I've got a pen in front. I'm holding a pen in front of me at a distance.
Yeah.
And it's a
it it looks like a pen,
yeah, from distance. And if I bring it closer to me,
Yeah. Less and less it becomes like a pen.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's not that's not a visual trick. That's the reality.
Right? So all these things that we see out there, we we see it only at distance.
And the closer it would get to them, the less they are that object.
Well, imagine that with some type of suffering.
Oh, yeah. They're suffering any.
Look at it. If you look at it and really look at it, it doesn't exist.
Same with pay, you know, anyway, I won't go on too many, but,
you know,
I it's just an encouragement to start and
Don't don't get caught up with the idea that you need your mind calm,
or you need to be relaxed,
sitting still.
Right? You Yeah. A lot. I was I was a monk in the forest tradition, so that means the monks lived in the forest. And
what we did was a lot of walking meditation.
So just walking, literally walking, you could you know, we did it slowly, but you don't have to do it slowly. You can just walk at a nice pace and just be aware of your feet and the way your body is
you know, that that's
so, you know, easy to do. I mean, I ran so many events with I run,
family camps a long time as a month. None of them was silent.
Yeah. None of them were, you know,
you had to be quiet. In fact, even when I did run silent retreats, I also had to peer into personal,
mindfulness because, really, mindfulness is interpersonal.
You know, so the the the encouragement is is to inquire into your life.
So first, you know, like, look at your body, but have the willingness to inquire is what is real, what is true,
you know, why am I Who am I? These are big questions I know, and sometimes they're scary, and sometimes it's nice to do them with other people because we're set up to be relational.
But but
to inquire
and and don't stop.
Don't stop until you've got the answer.
For yourself, not what somebody else has told you. There's plenty of good rules out there that wanna tell you how it would be and how it should be, and you should do this and do that and do the other. Lots of people told me when I got my black mold poisoning, do this, go on that diet, but they haven't got my body.
Yeah. Yeah. I've got my body. Right? And my body says this, that, and that. Okay. Sometimes it's a little bit out, but you start to be able to refine it. You can again.
So,
you know, and when people use big words, ask them what do they mean?
Yeah.
Be curious. Be curious. Yeah. Be curious. You know, and if it's if it's if it's too frightening or whatever, fine.
That's also alright.
Yeah. But still but but you can stay or stay with the curious.
Yeah. Alright. Even curious with fear.
Just a little bit. Even just a little bit, it's like looking underneath the blanket and I oh, okay. That's enough for me. But, okay, just a little step because
kindness is
goes so far,
you know, and it
Just see what it's like to do one
thing of kindness each day, you know, smile at somebody or give yourself a hug or a pat on the back or write yourself a nice note or give yourself a nice bit of food or whatever it whatever folks your boat, you know, whatever's important for you.
Yeah.
But you're missing out missing out on a diamond. Here it is. You get a you've got a free diamond inside of you, yet
absolutely priceless.
And my encouragement is
you know,
recognize that.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Anything very helpful as well because these things are, you know, free things that everybody can do. Totally free.
Simple to do. Doesn't cost too much time or anything. No. No. The you pick and choose what you like. Exactly. Pick and choose what you like and and and explore for yourself what really works. If that doesn't there'll be something else.
There there always is something else.
Yeah. You know?
Let let live help you.
Yeah. I think that's a very, very good advice. Yeah. Let live help you. Yeah. And let, a life flow through you as well. Yeah. As much as you can take, and I know sometimes it's like it's too much, and that's also alright. Just It's too much on it. That's okay. But let it let it come through.
Yeah. For for all for this is for all of us for a well-being
of us, me, you, of communities and our planet.
I mean, this is the it was really needed right now.
Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
Right. Beautiful.
We've been going for, over an hour.
We've explored many topics here, and we ended on some some practical tips. Hopefully, people can,
pick and choose and incorporate
So if people want to connect with you and and find out more about you, where could they Yeah. So they can they can find me at playful monk.net.
Playformmonth.net.
And they can also find me on LinkedIn through my name, Amara Arnato, which, you know, I post regularly,
on, on, LinkedIn.
Yeah. And I'm I'm also I'm I'm super excited. I know we're out nearly out of time, but, I've learned this new technique called Brain spotting, which is really interesting. It's it says where you look is how you feel. It's not NLP.
And I'm I'm really
I I'm super excited to be able to use it with the the people that I work with. So
it's a it's a really complimentary to all the all the stuff that we've been talking about today, which is a sort of way of clearing out the junk, which is which is client led. That's what so fun is really beautiful about this this particular approach is that you lead it.
And we work together, and it's actually,
can be through a lot of silence.
But it's it's it's neuroscience. This is, you know,
a neuroscience approach
Yeah. So I'm I'm also offering that as well.
Yeah. So still lots and lots to learn, of course, and and new things will always, come up.
I will link to all of those things in the show notes so that people can, find you and connect with. Thank you.
Where they want, and then you can find that, under this episode wherever you listen to this.
And thank you so much for this, wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. Thank you very much, Barry. It's been really a pleasure. Really lovely. Thank you.