Alright, guys. This week, we are having a special guest. We're having Dawn Wiggins of Dear Divorce Diaries, and we're sitting down talking about marriage counseling and what you can kind of expect. Just more about the whole world of
going through a divorce
and how we can actually correct ourselves and keep ourselves from experiencing
that type of pain. Talking about that this week in episode 252 of the relaxed male. This is the relaxed male,
a show that comes to you each week helping men to remove the nice guy from their life so they can actually live their life on their terms.
Join the host of certified coach, Brian Goodwin, as he helps men step out of their heads and become free from the thoughts that bind them.
Alright, man. Today, I have a special guest. Don't normally bring guests on as y'all know, but, today had one, that
just really kinda sparked my attention and then drew some, drew some interesting,
thoughts into
the whole relationship,
issues that we run into. And so we have Dawn Wiggins, and she is with Dawn Wiggins Therapy. She also is the host of the podcast,
dear divorce diary.
And
we are gonna be sitting down and and talking
a combination of what
divorce
or not divorce, but,
but marriage therapy
and couples therapy is like, but also wanted to kinda talk a little bit about what,
being conflict avoidant is and what and
what to do about that because there's so much in in that that,
one, I don't personally fully understand,
knowing that, hey, I I do like to avoid conflict at all possibility, and I think most men do most people
typically do. And that is just a
a topic that's as to how do we
change that so that we can become step into a little bit more of the conflict
and and be able to
to have a
a relationship that is,
lack of better words,
worth fighting for.
And so we're gonna I wanna welcome again,
folks.
This is, Dawn wigg Wiggins. And, Dawn, how are you today?
Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for having me and for that intro. I
love these topics we're gonna talk about today. Yep. I think
to your point,
if if people, specifically, right, your listeners, could tolerate
conflict more. Exactly what you said, a relationship
worth fighting for. Wow. That's so powerful.
I'm not I think I heard, I think I heard of somebody have a have a podcast that was
that you utilized either that term or that might have been,
might have been a a close to their their show title or something. But but yeah. Stuck. Yeah. We have to we have to we do have to fight for that for that connection.
Fighting for connection is the name of the podcast. That's There we go. Yeah.
Bringing it around. Bring it around around there. So but it's, it's
we do we struggle so many in so many different ways to have,
to have that connection. I see men who just
are on either in tears or on the verge of tears
in frustration,
of self defeat and all that. Mhmm. Those those other types of
of disempowering thoughts Mhmm. Bring them into
Mhmm. Not into
pulling them out of the game entirely.
And
that is it's a a lot of it is because we don't like to fight.
Mhmm. And we've been raised to,
to to not fight, not to to not argue. We get around in the in the arguments, and our parents jump all over us and yell at us because,
you know, we have a disagreement.
Mhmm. I'm supposed to get along, and so we get along, and then we don't know how to actually have have arguments.
And so when it comes to conflict avoidance, what's a more
accurate way to to describe what what it is?
Oh, I think you're doing a beautiful job, but I would say at the core,
I'm gonna oversimplify it a little bit. Okay? But at the core, I would say that we are
emotionally avoidant.
We, especially today in a modern society, really struggle to tolerate our own emotional processes. And I've heard you talk about this on your podcast. Right? Like, what does it mean to process emotion? We all have emotion every day.
But I get a lot of clients in that are
like, I don't know. Do I feel mad, sad, glad, afraid, ashamed every day? Is that true? Do I? That we're really emotionally cut off. Right. Brene Brown would say,
we're comfortably numb. You know, we use our beer and a banana nut muffin and maybe a a ball game to just stay, like, really comfortably numb.
I don't know about you. I watch my husband play a lot of games on his phone. Right? That's comfortably numb. We stay super busy with the kids, with work, with whatever.
So busy we're distracted from what we're feeling, and all those feelings are just piling up inside of us with no real skills
to like, healthy emotional skills to process what we're feeling. And then the first time somebody pierces that veil, like, you know, just, like, pokes pokes through that bin and kinda remember it. Right? Like, all of a sudden, we're flooded with emotion,
and it feels like, you know,
so overwhelming.
Our nervous systems are like, what the actual do we are we allowed to curse on your podcast? Oh, heck. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What the actual fuck?
And
and and many people shut down Right. When there's that much emotion. Right? Because it's just like a back stock. You know? It's like,
talk about, like, doomsday prepping. It's like worst stockpiling emotions, like, as though, you know, we're never gonna have any ever again. Absolutely.
And so and so that's it. Right? We're overwhelmed by our own,
you know, experience of our emotion, and then we just are like, I'm out of here. And we Yeah. Run, yeah, from what we're feeling. Just become completely
washed. You know, we we
we avoid them enough to where when we do actually have
a an explosion of emotions, we Mhmm. We become
just
exhausted from it. I mean, we there's been times where you we see guys who are just
emotionally done. They're not even
they've they've
tried to tried to hold it together and and tried to
to through
whatever means, whether it's,
through
using other indulgent,
Yes. Indulgent emotions or even buffering of some sort
with with alcohol or or other type of drug. Or Yep. Porn. Yep. Yeah. Porn,
food.
Food. That's right. That's right. Food. Mhmm. And, and, I mean, we're we all find ways to
to drown out whatever that that uncomfortable sensation is.
Yeah. I mean, that's well, actually, that's it. The biggest thing that I've been just trying to show guys is that, yeah, their
their emotions are just
a vibration they feel throughout their body, and that's
But modern society is not set up for men or women, but especially men to
to process emotion. Right? So so many I know you know this. I've heard you talk about it. Right? I,
so many men
sit at a desk,
you know, or or,
I don't know, just don't we're not we're not outside. We're not using our bodies. We're not chopping wood. We're not hunting. We're not we're not we're on screens. We are,
you know, we're not gathering in groups in a meaningful way. We're not talking in a meaningful way. It's like we're just so disconnected, so independent, so sort of like shells of ourself. Right?
I think that,
I've heard you share that, you know, we need to do dangerous things. We need to be an adventure. We need, like, men need those things to really feel in touch with themselves and to process what they're feeling.
And and there's just not enough of that these days. I've,
you know, had the
the, opportunity to speak with
g s Youngblood,
you know, the author of the masculine and relationship, you know, and and where I've seen so many of even my own clients kind of miss the mark when you're trying to
embody work like the art of masculinity. Right? Is that, okay. I've read I've read these books. I've read these concepts. I'm studying masculinity,
but then missing it about the piece of needing to embody it. Right? Needing to actually do the physical acts, and it is. It's a physical act
of feeling emotion,
expressing emotion, getting out of your body, reducing that stockpile, and getting comfortable with the experience
of feeling. That. That's Yeah. Between passive and active learning. Yeah. Yes.
We can't think our way out of emotional problems, and that's the that's the default where people default to. And that's what just leads to this kind of chronic
conflict avoidance. Right? I think that if we were outside,
you know, if less people had lawn guys, you know, like, how often do my my husband and I, we get out there and we, like, you know, do the hedge trimming and the lawn mowing. That's all good for us. It's like helping us really move that stuff out of our bodies, and and Absolutely. Not how we live in modern society. No. And it it's not. And, I mean, it's
and I and I get even
the last few years has
appeared to
to
become dain more dangerous.
Mhmm. It's there's
there are little instances and spikes of where, yeah, society has gotten a little dangerous here, a little more dangerous there. But as a whole, we are actually safer. And I I think sadly so many of us are
tied into our
in our phones and into television and the news so much that
we've gotten so scared to even
go outside hardly at all. Amen. Amen. You know, my family and I, we went for a hike one day not that long ago,
in just like a local, you know, kinda park or whatever. And
I decided to put my phone down, like, to hide it in a bush at the front. And, I think my husband had left left his phone in the car or something like that. And so the 3 of us are in the woods. Right?
And,
I'm listening to the conversation about my daughter, like, we don't have a phone, but what if we get lost? But neither of you have phones. Like right? And the level of anxiety she had about no one had a phone on this hike. And so we started talking to my husband is the guy you want on your survival team. Like, he's that guy. He's like super MacGyver ish. Right? And he's gonna he's gonna build you a structure in Right. Yeah. Lord knows what. Right? We got shelter in 2.9 minutes. It's so broad. That's right. And so we just well, you know, we started talking about, well, what would we do? Right? What would we do, and how would we find our way? And what if what if it rained? And and that
capacity for survival without
our comfortably numb tools is what we're really disconnected from, and it's really what we need to get back to. Oh, yeah. Just confidence in our ability to provide and care for ourselves.
And then I think women lose faith in men as these kind of providers and protectors.
Right. And and now it's all askew. Ever that typical masculine and feminine polarity is all askew because we're all just kind of in victim y, numb
zombie. Like, I always say the zombie apocalypse is now. It's already happening. Yeah. We're just right? We just walk around with these, like, glowing things in front of our faces like zombies. And, yeah, and that is the root, I think, of so much conflict avoid. Much of the conflict and and Yeah.
And disease that we that we face That's right. Today. And so
so when
what is
it about
that you've seen in your in your in your therapy?
What is it that
is, what is it about
conflict avoidance?
Why is it why why is it so hard for us to be able to
to
step through that that barrier of Mhmm. Because I mean, I know we all have our
we all run up on our unintentional thoughts. Yell back at me or even, oh, well, yeah, I'm not ever gonna I'm gonna not gonna we're supposed to have have sex tonight, but now we're, you know, now we're in this argument. So that's all out there. You know,
congratulations. I'm not gonna have gonna get any for the next 2 months. You know? Gosh. Yeah. Loves to go overboard in that. Mhmm. But how do we how do we stop
getting, you know, when we start finding ourselves in that that mental,
that mental degrading
loop of of of doom,
how do we what is there that we can do as Yeah. People in general to Yeah. Stop so we can actually even be aware enough to to not
avoid the conflict.
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think you're gonna like my answer. Good. Good.
So because there's no quick fix. Right? And and so I could say, oh, in that moment,
if you could stop what you're doing and you could do a series of EFT tapping have you ever I I don't know if you have an EFT. I have a, I have a friend who is very much into tapping. Yeah. And and, I mean, she's she's had me do the the the
thing, and, I think there's just some place like Yeah. I usually you know, there's brow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The bra that's right. The the yeah. So, you know, I could say to you right now, like, oh, Brian, have you heard of this tool? It's called EFT tapping. And in that moment where you're having that flood of emotion and that rush of thoughts, that EFT tapping, it uses the energy meridians, and it's gonna help move that energy through your body, and you're just gonna feel a shift. Right? And that's a sexy answer, but it's sort of bullshit. It is and it isn't. Right? Like, so,
yeah, so I love EFT tapping. It's a core tool that I promote with anybody and everybody that I work with. And the more you use it, the more effective it's gonna be. Right?
But I think that that is sort of a Band Aid on a gunshot wound with regard to where most people are.
Yeah. Right? So if I say to you use that EFT tapping and you do it, right, let's say you're like, oh, what did that lady say on that podcast at one time and then you do it and it doesn't work? You're like, this shit doesn't work. Bullshit. Yeah. And then you don't do it again. Right? And so it does work. But the problem is
the thing that that I would call men anyone. Right? I say this I preach this to to my women listeners, but I would say this to men too.
You have to make a choice
that you're going to take responsibility for your life Right. In ways that you don't even realize you're not doing. And I've heard you talk about this on your podcast, the victim mindset.
Right? And so I think that
men
so often do not realize how much they are slaves to the dopamine reward system in their brains. Right? And you mentioned like, oh, shit. I'm not gonna now we're not gonna have sex tonight. Do you know how many men I have seen, like, absolutely
be willing to torch a marriage because they can't have sex on demand
or,
you know, when when it suggested that they put porn away or they don't drink or they don't whatever it is they're using to get that dopamine reward hit.
And and I really think that as a society so I'm not calling out men over women. I swear. This is like I think accountability is There's actually a lot of women who are starting to show up in porn addiction,
groups now, which is just Mind blowing. Slabbering on that one. It's like, really? Oh, I actually do. I thought that was just a guy centered thing.
No. No. Because we're all really, really, really disconnected from ourselves and from each other. Right? And so what do you do when you're having those thoughts? It's like, well, do you notice how often you're feeling sort of
like you're low energy, like you're sort of depressed, like everything is sort of meaningless? It's like, are you gonna do something about that? Like and I don't mean, like, lowercase d do. It's like upper case cap all caps. Do something about that. Right?
And I think that the more we expect the government to save us, the more we expect our spouses to save us, the more we expect our bosses to save us or rescue us from what we're feeling or not feeling,
the more ineffective we're gonna be at in those moments where it's like, I don't wanna have this fight right now. I just wanna get laid.
That is the problem. Right? And so it's sort of like a call to action. Like,
yes. I want you to EFT tap. I want you to EFT tap every damn day.
Right. But bigger than that, I want you to
learn how to live
a big, glorious, messy life No. That's not so comfortably numb. Does that feel like an answer to your question or no? Or is it It it it does.
It's and I I I kinda expected a bit of that just the of
it's,
because we do
one word normally so when we're in the moment of of
arguing with each other and we're fighting against, you know, whatever it is we're doing, I I get that we're so
locked into,
oh my gosh. This is it's the fight of our life where, you know, we we've gotta survive this this
this attack that we're doing upon each other
that, you know, we're in that,
survival mode. Mhmm. And so, yeah, to to sit there and jump out of survival mode, go, oh, yeah. I gotta
tap my finger tap my face. You tap my face. Yeah. And and do all do all that. And, yeah, you're not going you're not going to especially if you don't know how to do that, all the tapping
and and stuff. Well, that's just an example of a tool that helps move emotion, right, or helps with embodiment, helps with it's a somatic technique. Right? But so but why are our nervous systems perceiving
a fight with our wife as a nervous system threat? Like, why is that even happening? Yeah. Because Because it's not rational, especially
for men who are, you know, from an evolutionary perspective, able to go out and and
fight the lion.
Plunk a dinosaur on the head and drag That's right. Why, you know, getting getting into a fight with your wife? Why is that so threatening? It doesn't add up. Right? So we have to look at
why does this feel so and I think that when you talk about the pillars
of masculinity,
you know, when your wife is sort of your only
close contact or your only source of what you perceive as love Yeah. Or connection,
then when that gets threatened, it feels like You're out of the village. Yeah. That's right. That's right.
When you don't
trust yourself and maybe that's because your parents taught you not talk back or maybe that's because your wife emasculates you all the time or maybe that's because,
you know, your boss and, you know, when you don't trust yourself, when you don't trust in your capacity to
provide and
protect. And so I think it's these sort of big, big issues,
like self trust, like self respect, like
community, like,
yes,
like physical strength. How many men, you know,
have let go of being physically strong?
Right.
A lot. Yeah. Oh, no. Very much so. I mean, there's a lot of guys who just who who don't
don't try to go go forth and take care of themselves.
And, I mean
and that's
when it comes to, like,
like, one of the big things I hear society go about,
and and I use society just as the big general. Sure. But,
you know,
that
you hear
a lot of folks say, like, women don't have,
don't have power. They're, you know, they're they're fighting against the patriarchy and all that.
And, I think back to when my
my grandma and my granddad,
were both alive.
My granddad,
good 6 foot 2, 6 foot 3. At least that's what he seemed when I think back to a big, huge, barrel chested guy. Yeah.
Yeah. Deep voice. And when it boomed, you know, that was god speaking.
Yep. My and ma, my grandma,
was a just a little sweet sweet little old lady.
But, you know, if the if she,
if she was mopping the floor,
that man did not go into the kitchen.
There was respect. Yeah. It was I'm not going he would take his boots off, and he would go he would go to the front door because it's used to coming in through the garage. It would, he'd open the door up and see wet floor,
shut the door and, and come in the other way with his boots off. And yeah, it was,
there was a,
that women do have a a tremendous amount of power.
It's just not men's power. And and, sadly, a lot of guys have
given up what their power is. Yes.
Yes. And women have forgotten that they have any.
It's not that we don't. We have tremendous women have tremendous power, but we've forgotten. Yeah. I mean, if anything, to point back to to sex, I mean Mhmm. We may want it all the time, but
it's Yeah. Who, who finally get to decide, yeah. Okay. Yeah. We're gonna have fun or no. No. Not having fun tonight. And
it's all in their choice.
Well, I think that's the whole point of connection and intimacy. Right? Is that Absolutely.
Yeah. It's we're better together, but that has to be that that requires mutual
vulnerability, mutual Mobility. Mutual collaboration. Yeah.
Yeah. I love that picture you painted, though, of, like, you know, little ma having
power with,
not over, right, but power with
pa.
Yeah. Like and that came via respect, mutual respect. It's beautiful. Yeah. And it, I just,
and,
it's one of those times where, like, yeah. Guys, we've got
so much power. I mean, we do we are
people automatically turn to
to the to the
man in the room when there's, there's a big problem. Mhmm.
And, I mean, we've we've told ourselves and we've listened to
so many people who honestly don't have
any,
any authority over us
as to go on. Hey. Yeah. You you don't have,
you need to need to abdicate
your power for,
for
these people. And it's like, no. No. We don't.
But and I think a lot of that abdicating because men don't feel that they have that type of power
Mhmm.
Is, causes that that lack of
of being able to step into the conflict. So Mhmm.
So in your in your view, how do guys
step in? Because I I there's some I I understand will
have a tendency
to go overboard.
And, oh, well, I'm supposed to take my power back, and so they're going to
they're gonna go because the nice guy is,
are,
the nice guy Mhmm. Is very passive. And when you tell a guy nice guy to stop being a nice guy, they go, oh, so I'm supposed to be a jerk, and it's like That's right. Not supposed to be a jerk either. A nice guy and a jerk are 2 sides of the same asshole. That's right. And so you gotta stop you gotta you gotta to to start being accepting to the fact that everybody else is gonna have their own emotions.
So
so when a guy and especially a nice guy, a guy who is used to
to
not
embracing,
or not embracing the the conflict and not stepping into and facing that that that conflict, that fight,
that disagreement
that's going on with their wife. How what
what is there anything that,
yeah, we can
learn to to calm ourselves down. Mhmm. But is there any other to the fire. We could be present
Mhmm. With the, with the circumstance so that we can actually understand, hey. I'm not dying here. She's I mean, my wife is the I've I've got a foot over my wife. She's not going to she's not gonna punch me in the nose unless she tries real hard. Yeah.
You know? Well, you know, you're describing
my marriage. Right? Like,
I'm a pistol.
Yeah. My wife is too. And my and my husband is a is a recovering nice guy. Right? And and he's also the guy you want on your survival team. Right? He's got he is strong. He's physically strong.
And,
but he,
it has been a years
long process
of me
in my pistol y ways telling him to stop being a nice guy. Right? And I don't think that every husband has a wife who's
asking
her husband to retire from nice guy ness. Right? And I think that also has to do with the fact that you are aware enough that Yes. You you've I know where you're hanging out at. Come on, hubby. You're
I I I want you to be the man that I need you to be. That's right. That's right. And I I didn't always do it in in such a, you know, lovely way either. I probably that has been my own work work as well. You know? But my husband has read GS Youngblood's work, all of it. Right? He's done the workbooks. He does the EFT tapping. He's
studied Joe Dispenza, practiced meditation, and he doesn't do all of this all the time.
Right? He's you know?
But when we have conflict
and I would say that, you know, this is a great example. Like, my marriage is a fantastic example. Very, very often
when I'm upset about something and I can see him spiraling
Uh-huh. The first thing he does is he gets defensive.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We always do. Which then I escalate.
Yeah. Is that relatable?
Very much. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife had to a t. Exactly. But yeah.
Yeah. Fix the So then I escalate. Right? And so 4
woman and yeah. Yeah. We're just Yeah.
And so it's taken a lot of practice on his part
to be able to use breath work,
like, literally, like calming breaths Uh-huh. To ground himself
to,
you know, EFT tap. But, also, let me talk about some of these other things that are in real life. Right? In the last couple of years, my husband has launched his own
carpentry
business. Oh, awesome. Good job. Doing that, he got back to his roots. Right? He had done a lot of office work for a segment of time. He he he grew up sort of blue collar, did some office work. He was depressed doing office work. He got back to that roots of what is in his human design, what really brings him joy.
And,
in that finding success and living in his gifts Uh-huh. Guess what? He fights better.
Yeah. Right? He fights better, and so he's using his body, and he's doing all of this. Right? Now, also, in the last couple of years, I've started practicing homeopathy, and and we don't have to get into this whole massive loop, but I will say
k. That has been a game changer. It's energy medicine.
It has helped resolve probably some low grade depression for him. K.
Some
probably some childhood wounding for him. And so he's just happier in general and I think more confident in general. And so then he fights better.
And it's great when we fight. Like, I don't know about you and your wife, but when we have a successful fight,
I'm more attracted to him. Right. And I think that's true for most women. There isn't a there is an emotional intimacy that comes with resolving conflict together. Right? And so
I think it's, like, overall, if if a man can say to himself, like, am I genuinely happy? Happy? Do I feel I know this is another one of the pillars of masculinity. Right? Am I living in my purpose? Do I feel purposeful? Am I using my body? Do I feel physically strong? If a man can't say yes to a lot of those things, he's gonna shrink in a fight.
Okay. You know?
Absolutely.
So it's sorta it's a heavy lift. It's a big it's a big lift. It's not a there's no quick fix. Yeah. Okay. So
jump back over onto the,
the homeopathy.
Yeah. Because
there's a the a lot of us guys, when we hear something like that and it's energy work, we're like, oh, gosh. There's that it's, you know Holy shit. It's the hippie dippy, you know, moving of energy thing. Yeah.
There's and I've had a couple, couple of guests who
who that's what they were all about. It was Yeah. They were all about,
using energies and things like that. And the way they kinda describe it was very, very woo woo.
Yep. But at the same time, there is
a bit of,
a bit of of an element in there that
makes a bit of sense. It's not there's a lot of it that doesn't, but at the same time, that's just out of out of ignorance. I think so. So Okay. So I'm gonna go all the way to the heart of it. You do with it what you will. Okay? So
my belief system is such that
we there is an intelligent creator.
I don't know who were he here she is. Right? But it there is an intelligent creator
that created
this spinning ball that we live on
and that our bodies were designed to heal themselves.
The nervous system
integrates,
right, with this meat suit
in a way that there's this constant feedback loop between the brain and the body Right. Right, that allows it to
determine whether or not it's safe or not safe and all of this. Right? It's a very, very complex system,
and that everything we needed to heal ourselves already exists on the spinning spaceship.
And that,
there are a lot of ways in which we have denied as a as a human race. Right? That energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transmuted.
Right. Okay.
And that's the core
of really how I practice therapy. It's the core of EFT. It's the core of EMDR therapy. It's the core of homeopathy. Right? That is the core chiropractic
that,
that
if we do not transmute
stuck or blocked energy or negative energy,
it's it's going to create disease processes in our bodies. Okay. Okay. And so I think that when we eat shit food, when we don't move,
when we,
take a bunch of like, when we're overmedicated,
right, overprescribed,
which most of America is, we have the worst health cup outcomes really almost
in the world, not the worst, but it's pretty it's pretty bad, especially considering we're a first world country. Right?
Overmedicated
junk food not moving. Right? And and these are creating disease processes.
So homeopathy is a very old concept that can be traced back even before Hippocrates, but Hippocrates is the father of modern medicine, and Hippocrates even
identified
that like cures like. If you think about antibiotics, that is a like cures like concept. We're using bacteria
to kill bacteria. Right? We're using we we pulled something from mold that is going to kill bacteria. Right? Yeah. And so homeopathy in Latin means similar suffering.
And it's the idea that
that's
that what is,
the the course is the cure. Right? So
something similar, isopathy, would be like snake venom
being the antidote
to a snake bite. Right? It's very, very similar concept.
And so in homeopathy, it's the idea that,
Hahnemann, in 17 something, who was studying medicine at the time, which was largely bloodletting and all of this kind of treating using mercury to treat
STDs and chinchona bark to treat malaria,
Hahnemann, this doctor at the time, asked himself, why is chinchona bark so successful
at treating malaria?
And he decided one day he didn't have malaria, but he's like, I'm gonna ingest this chinchona bark, and I'm gonna figure it out. So he eats enough chinchona bark to create a toxic effect, and that toxic effect looked
like malaria. And he was like,
So
there are all these substances in nature
that have a matching energy signature for our disease patterns.
So a very common remedy for men
who have low grade depression and tend to bottle things up is natrum myriaticum.
What is that? Yeah. That's exactly what I was gonna ask. Well, what is that? Energy signature of salt.
So what happens when when salt water dries up, right, it's you've got this crystallized,
hard
Fine. Substance. Right? So you give a few doses of natural myriaticum
and all of a sudden men who have this low grade depression and difficulty
expressing themselves, all of a sudden become very, very fluid. It's been a very successful remedy for my husband.
It has given him his words in fights where he would just shut down and get defensive
and be locked inside of himself. It's been very, very effective at helping him loosen up. You can get these remedies on Amazon. They look like this. Right? They're just little purple tube. You can usually get them at your local health food store. Yeah. And this is a complete medicine
system
that would put the pharmaceutical companies out of business. And there you have it. There you have it. Right?
And I just most time, I was one of those where, you know, I'd hear people talk say, oh, it's big pharma, big pharma, and it's like going well, yeah. They're they're big because they're providing a service, but, you know Is the service working? Well, and Are we out there? There's to a point,
it
it it has allowed our life to
increase our livelihood
tremendously. And so there's a part of me that's going, yeah. It's done what it's needing to do.
But at the same time, I see you start to see, I guess, in the age,
just being
in being older now, it's I look back on it. It's like, okay.
Probably really don't need to be, I mean, you you hear the, the the side effects of of all the drugs on television, and you're, like, going
alright. It might cause possible death. It's like, yeah. That's a that's a Yeah. Why are we doing that? Why are we doing that? Yeah. Yeah. A drug I wanna add, you know, that's that's what was one. There was one that just cracked me. Oh, the,
I can't remember what it was, but they're one of the side effects was anal leakage, and I was like Right. Exactly. There's a winner in it. But, you know, antidepressants,
while they while they have,
you know, helped pull many people off brink of suicide and that kind of thing, there are homeopathic remedies for suicidal depression and depression that work within minutes or hours.
And and so let's say you put somebody on an antidepressant because they're deeply suicidal, and that's the that's the, heroic nature of,
pharmaceutical companies. Right? Thank god we have these things we might say to ourself, but they were never meant to be relied upon long term. Yeah. And that
when it comes to the the antidepressants,
the SSRIs,
and and and things like
that, that's one that's that's probably the start of me
kind of going against pharmaceuticals
because and it's not so much pharmaceuticals
as it was almost lazy doctoring.
Yeah. That's right. And
and because I had my oldest daughter,
her
mom was
was having some, some behavioral issues
with,
with Kira. And it was like, alright.
Took her to a doctor, and doctor's like, alright. Well, here's some here's some Here's a prescription.
And it's like, it's a 10 year old kid. I mean, come on. And I you look through it, and it's not approved
for it. No. For anyone under the age of 18. And then we start wondering
They're putting 34 year olds on antidepressants and antianxiety meds now. And and we wonder why there's school shootings. Yep. That's right. Because it that's right. That's right. They don't have
one,
emotions
are
the coloring of our memories. Oh, you can't have empathy when you're flat. Right? Like so so whether you're depressed or you're overmedicated, you're flat and you're losing track of empathy. Right? And there's so many things in society.
When you're comfortably numb, you cannot have a healthy amount of empathy, which means yeah. That's right.
Bullying, school shootings, you name it. Absolutely.
And that's I I'm a firm believer that if you were to look at it from from Columbine on
on up to the to the latest
school shooting, the kids who have done that
We're on meds most of the time. Percent of the time, they're going to be on some type of anti That's
right. That's right. And it's
it's a,
I understand why people don't wanna do that study because then now they're gonna have to say, well, what are we just gonna do now? It's like, well, first, let the kids have their anxiety.
Anxiety
is good for your kid. And that's, and now you've got me almost all Well, within a within a window of tolerance. Right? Within a window of tolerance, we right? Like, yes. Having,
uncomfortable emotions is a skill. Like, being able to deal with uncomfortable it's a skill. Right? But, yeah, within a window of tolerance. Yeah. Well, but then yeah. Okay. But, I mean, that
we how did we
how do we get used to to getting past those those,
those uncomfortable that anxiety and stuff?
That's being
I'm sure it's it I'm sure there's probably some type of therapy where, you know, it's almost
sensory overload, but and I I'm not saying, you know, throw them out into into whatever triggers them and and just let them have a meltdown.
But at the same time, we
were used to doing
something, you know, doing uncomfortable things. Oh, yes. No. Our health our health outcomes for our children have changed dramatically in the last 30 years,
and it's it's a whole systemic overhaul. Right? It's the it's parents are work too much. You know, the foods aren't healthy enough. The kids aren't outside. It's screen time. It's it's a whole systemic problem. You can't. There's no
one solution. But but I would say
that
if I could just encourage people that there are solutions out there,
and, and it doesn't have to come from a doctor or from a president or from a right? Like, I
I found homeopathy on Instagram
and started teaching myself and then eventually hired someone and then eventually went to school. All this. Right? But, like, the answers are all out there, and the answers are free, quite frankly.
Right? If you have the courage to to get out of your comfort zone and to try something, to go against the grain of what
popular culture is doing. Right. I think we've sold our own souls for an iPhone, basically. You know? Sadly. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm the
one of those where I've and I've started telling my daughter because she's got have her first, first grandkid. It's like Aw. It's 13
between 13 16, she starts screaming for her phone. Yeah. I mean, if you think you absolutely have to give her a phone, okay. It's a Nokia.
Yeah. Right. Right. Phone. That's all you can do on it. Yeah. Yeah. And so
she's like, well but, you know, there's this, and that's a lot of the same
same thoughts that we had. Just like, well,
you know, what if she gets lost?
She's got Nokia brick phone. She can just That's right. That's right. And it and it takes a beating. You can hammer a nail into the wall.
Right. It's great. And so she doesn't need the
she was she doesn't need Instagram
at at 19. And I think and that was because she and and my daughter,
youngest daughter, she had
some she had several
little issues that cropped up, and I and in hindsight,
being being 2020
is Mhmm. Being on Instagram, seeing the
the
the the filters over filtering of of them in there and Yeah.
And accepting the fact that, yeah, you're
you're meant the way God wants you to be. And That's right. That's right. We've yeah.
You know, I recently read a study that Botox
is diminishing our capacity for empathy as well.
Really? Okay. Yeah. Because it's limit because it's limiting our facial expression, and facial expression is one of the ways that, you know, we all have mirror neurons, and it's one of the ways that we connect with others and are able to tap into empathy. And, yeah, it's it's that whole, you know, system of
anyways, we're in a rabbit hole. All
those inner, facial,
facial signals and stuff. Yeah. That's right. That's how we connect. That's connection. Right? We're erasing it little by slow.
And Yeah. I get it. I mean, a lot of a lot of the folks
use it because they're like, oh, well, I've got that little crease in between my eyebrows. I was like, yeah. Okay.
Well, because at our core, we we
struggle to believe, I think, men and women that we're good enough. Right? We just Absolutely. All struggle with this
deep fear that we're not
enough.
No. Or that is the that is the big big worry is that yeah. Are we
yeah. I I mean, we that's the one thing
sons always turn to their dad and ask, am I good enough? Am I good enough? Wow. And that Wow. Well, I will tell you that my,
yeah, my husband's
father died
just last year, and I know he died with my son with my husband believing that he was never good enough in his dad's eyes. Right? Like and so it's beautiful that you bring that up.
Yeah. That that that is was a core wound for my husband. Absolutely.
Yeah. That's I mean, that's sad that that that that is
a
a a big a big wound that a lot of guys have. Mhmm. That's I mean and we do. We carry carry it with us through the rest of our life. I mean, we Yes. It plays out out in our marriage. And we're open. Hey. Am I good enough? And when our when our wife comes and and and wants nags us about not taking the trash out. Mhmm. All of a sudden, that is us going,
having a an a flash of shame on that note. I'm not I'm not a an adequate husband. I forgot to take the trash out this morning. I was running late or, you know, I was chasing the dogs down down the street and and
didn't have time to do it at one of our afterwards.
So and so we have those those those
little shame stories that that cause us to to recede into away from the connection instead of stepping up and just saying, yeah, I screwed up. And that I think a lot of guys, if we were to just
own
the
the the fault that they had,
it would allow them to stand
firmly
with themselves and go, yeah. You're right. I didn't take the trash out. That was my fault.
And be okay with that.
You can overcome that that shame just enough to where it's not going to cause you to wanna retreat.
And Sure. That
lean into Yeah. That's the discussion with your wife.
What you're describing is fantastic. It's the capacity to separate,
a behavior
from who you are. Right? It's like because I took the trash out is not a reflection on whether or not I'm good enough. It's a reflection on how with it I was this morning.
Right? Like, my level of motivation or my level of responsibility today or my level of time management, it's not a reflection on who I am, and I think it's spot on. You know, it's interesting
in marriage counseling,
with any kind of therapy. Right? But but marriage therapy for sure,
you know, you come in and you so many people say, like, well, we need a mediator. We need a a neutral third party to mediate this. Right? It's like it's like they expect me to, like, put points on the board for each other. Like, this one goes to him. Is is work keeping wins every every room. That's not at all what marriage therapy is, but
but, you know, we expect it to be about communication
and conflict resolution.
And,
you know, maybe
one has anxiety, one has depression. If it's really sexy marriage therapy, maybe we're gonna get into attachment styles, anxious, and avoidant, and we're gonna get into right. If you're really working with someone who's experienced.
You know what's at the core of all of those clinical
observations?
What's that? It's a lack of self
acceptance that causes us to project all these fears and insecurities onto the relationship, onto the partner,
onto the
external third parties that we fight about, right, my in laws and my and the boys that you watch football with. Right? And so
what most good therapists are doing in marriage therapy is helping each person have a greater sense of self acceptance so that they can have a greater acceptance for their partner.
Yeah. And that is really at the core of most clinical work.
Wow. Okay. Okay. And I I see that completely because, yeah, that's you have to be able to
be okay with yourself. Yeah. Because there's only 2 things you can you have control of, and that's your your thoughts and your actions.
Mhmm. And so
what you're the story you're telling your like, Don Miguel Ruiz. Did you ever read his book, The Four Agreements? Yep. That's you know, you don't have to agree that she is,
that you're you're this terrible human being
just because you didn't take out the trash. That's the spell that you're putting upon yourself. Spell. That's right. The death of curiosity, really. Like, right? Like,
I I wish everyone would,
you know, come to see the value in curiosity and,
and not just making assumptions like Don Miguel Ruiz talks about, right, in in every moment about ourselves and about other people. Mhmm. And to to
to to
not not fall upon upon that,
that easy thought That's right. The easy thought. Mhmm. Is
is a challenge Because, I mean, it's an easy thought for the reason that it's it's easy to go to. It's easy to fall into that victim mindset and go, oh, well,
I'm I'm a piece of crap. I'm never gonna be any good.
And then to have to wait and and for your wife to, to expel energy trying to rescue you. And That's right. It doesn't it doesn't help anything, and it
just allows for more more conflict to continue.
And so and but if we can stop and
center ourselves
and
again, when you're in the middle of a conflict, that's
darn if you're not present and you're not mindful enough,
that
is darn near impossible because That's right. Are in such a panic mode. You're it's survival mode. My gosh. We're we're getting we're getting evicted from the from the village. How am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna Yeah. How am I gonna survive? And get survive. You know? The
I'm a big fan of pretty meat. Yeah. I'm a big fan of really simple tools too in that moment to remind because it's so right that when you need the tool the most is when you're least likely to remember it.
That's good to
know. Yeah. Right? And so guess what? We keep a dry erase marker in our bathroom counter, and I almost always have a mirror message up there.
I'm a big fan of,
you know, daily calendars. I'm a big fan of
hanging certain affirmations or reminders or putting 1 on your in your wallet or one on your dashboard of your car. Right? Like, these
simple tools that get overlooked
to help us remember to do something.
These are these are tools that I have people use all the time,
so that you can remember
to
to pursue
your goals.
Yeah.
K. No. That's, actually, that's a really good I know I I I never even thought of dry erase markers on in a mirror.
Because that right there just boom slit. I spun off on the the just all different things. Because, I mean, one of the things I'm trying to teach guys is just one of the ways of being a little more romantic.
Mhmm. And and, you know, I we do we all fall upon the little trick of, you know, do write little messages around. And so, you know, to be able to take just a dry erase marker That's right.
And have a great day or certain That's right. That's right. Most beautiful woman in the world points to it. That's beautiful. Yeah. And have just the fun,
flirtatious,
aspects
and
and even especially after you've had a fight. Yeah. If you can if you can do
lean into that,
is a
though a challenge is
one way to help
re get to the point of repair. Repair.
Because the athletes We're
synchronized, Brian. We're synchronized. We we're we're thinking alike. We absolutely.
So
but but anyhow, so
with I do have a quick question on on,
with therapy.
Yeah. And it's kinda leans into
a lot of things that
guys who are trying their darnedest to get
back into a better connected relationship with their wife. Mhmm.
What is something what is the
a a means to
to kinda help them do that? Because I I tell them I tell the guys, it's just you have to ask questions. You have to be curious and Mhmm. And ask more and more questions. What's some other ways or or a a a
I want us well, a hack. We'll just call it a quick hack, you know,
as to help them to
to show their wife that they are wanting to improve the the connection. Because not
a lot of times when we
come out of out of the blue and try something new and different,
And I know because I've I've heard it from
my wife many times is, oh, what are we trying now? You know, well, okay. Well, you know, you're trying this out. Okay. What do you what's the end objective on this? Which I mean, okay. Yeah. There might be a little bit of nookie involved in in as an
as an ulterior motive, but it's
the connection we know is what's needed. We feel that distance that is formed.
And so what is something that guys can do that helps
reinforce that connection and rebuild that up?
Can I give you 2 answers?
Let's call it, like,
maybe, like,
well, I won't I won't preface them. Okay. First one is
start observing
when not just
your wife, also yourself. Right? But start observing when your wife
is
has repetitive language.
Right? So, like,
repetitive complaints,
repetitive observations,
repetitive,
criticisms
Mhmm.
Repetitive,
complaints about herself, about her life, about right. Anything that's
really shows up over and over and over again,
I want you to really get good at observing that, and I want you to start to know and trust
that those repetitive complaints are signs of an actual deeper issue that's
not what she says it is.
Oh, okay.
So anything that's really showing up as repetitive is a sign of
deeper stuck energy. It could be a childhood wound.
It could be a relationship wound.
Right?
But I want you to start
asking questions to get below that repetitive
criticism. So for instance, let's say she chronically,
repetitively complains about the trash. Right?
But what is that really about? Is it about feeling like she doesn't matter? Is it about feeling like she's not good enough? Right? There's an there's she has an internalized negative belief
about something she's criticizing you for.
Okay. So yeah.
No. Yeah. So how can you start to get to know your wife
in a meaningful enough way that you're starting to connect the dots about how she's she's
calling your behavior
related to her internalized negative self-concept. Right? Right. Is it is it that she feels like she can't trust herself or you or that she's not good enough or doesn't matter or it's not safe for her to share her emotions or
right? So so that's and and the clue is always in the repetitive stuff. Okay.
Yeah. The second thing is is a deep dive. It's a deep, deep dive. But
I heard this a long time ago and it just hit home so much that I've started to bring it more and more into,
the work that I do with people.
But
when
a man
doesn't have
any kind of a faith practice,
any sort of a connection
to an intelligent creator or a source energy
Mhmm. Think he's always gonna be a little less grounded.
Yeah. I I would agree there.
And so
I would really encourage
for men to
cultivate
some sort of faith practice and something deeper than just this meat suit. Right? Like, what I think. Right?
My opinion is in the moment. Like, what are you grounding your sort of life around? Right? Whether it's,
you know,
like, spiritual concepts like Don Miguel Ruiz. Right? But something deeper to anchor yourself to because when your wife comes at you with the,
you gotta remember who you are based on something bigger than your wife's opinion or your opinion in that moment. So I know you said a hack. Right? But, like,
really, ground yourself in some capital t truth that's bigger than this fight in this moment so that you can remind yours. And that's the kinda shit also that I might put on a mirror message, right, That's gonna remind me of who I am and what I believe in in a moment where she's
coming from a balls. Okay. Okay. Did I answer your question? Yes. Very much so. I thought I like that. That's
like the fact that, being able to find a way to to especially to be able to ground yourself that it's as one of those that,
yeah, we are very much
set back we are easily knocked back on our heels when we are
not
thoroughly grounded in whatever type of belief we end up having. So yeah. Yeah. And and having some type of then and like you said, it doesn't have to be a
religion
so much. Mm-mm. But just some type of,
the a a truth that you Truth. Thoroughly believe. And and That's right. And that belief
and is just,
like, what I tell a lot of my guys is
the belief is nothing more than a a thought that you perceive to be true. Mhmm. So if you can find that truth, whether it's
she is not truly mad at me and that sinks and you can truly believe that within your heart, then, yeah, yeah, she could sit there and wail at you, and you could still be, I know she still loves me. Mhmm. She still loves me. She's just
she's scared. She's, she's afraid. She's either, a, losing,
resources,
being excluded,
and because and
and that is something and she's just
in her main panic.
Just she's trying to communicate that
don't forget about her. And if you can have the patience of of doing it like that, then, yeah, I I get I get to how that can help,
help a guy to be able to stand
strong against the the gale force of a of a of a pissed off wife. Mhmm.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
So,
alright. Well,
Dawn, how can people how can people find you?
Yeah. So we talk about all this and more. Right? If any of this is piqued your interest, we talk about all this and more on my podcast, Dear Divorce Diary. We talk about all the tools, right, for embodiment and grounding and
recovery and all that on Dear Divorce Diary. But you can also find me at my website, donwiggins therapy.com.
All sorts of blog posts and, you know, if you are curious about working together. Yeah.
Alright.
And
how when does your, when does your podcast normally come out? Usually Every Tuesday Thursday. Every oh, you do it twice a week. I know.
I'm I'm jealous. I'd love to be able to do it twice a week, but I only have the time for 1. So I'm very blessed. I have a team. Right? If I didn't have a team, like
yeah. Yeah. That would that would definitely
cause a difference.
Tuesday is usually a longer episode, and Thursday is usually,
a briefer usually to do with a tool, some sort of tool or hack, right, on Thursday.
A shorter episode. Alright.
And and that centers around women
going through going through a divorce and Mhmm. Kinda what's
that come along the lines of, like, what to expect or just more along the lines of It's my podcast is really a deep healing,
approach. Like, we talk we get into
a lot about codependency,
a lot about attachment styles.
We talk we really get to the heart of
the actions,
the deepest tools one needs to be using to really rehab their life. Right? Okay. Any sort of transitional moment or moment of crisis is such a beautiful
moment for Phoenix kind of vibes, you know, to reinvent ourselves. And that's kind of when I would say I had my spiritual awakening,
because I'm divorced and remarried. And so,
when I really woke up to all of this transitioning from a victim consciousness to a place of empowerment, right, took my life back.
Yeah. So so it's really just a deep dive on how to be
empowered
in a deeply meaningful way. Okay. And I will make sure to have all these,
all these
links to that on the, on the show. And, guys, just to let you know,
the they're yeah. If you you can I would recommend you listen to the, to the podcast?
There's a lot of really good information. Yeah. Okay. Get, get,
it's easy to get past
a lot
of there's not actually, not even that much
chick speaks that as as you wanna speak.
And it's easy for us to actually to to grasp and understand. Yeah. There she Dawn does like to talk to, talk about it through a
through a woman's line of view, which, I mean, it's easier for her to speak woman than it is dude. And it's kinda the same way it was just the reason why I went and started helping men with relationships because I can speak dude a lot more than I could speak woman because it's it we do have our little weight different The nuances. Right? I always say, though, that I was, the son my father never had. So,
yeah. So I can go there. Right? But and and, honestly,
I treat as many men as I do women. It's fascinating, and I love working with men. But sometimes when you have something like a podcast, you gotta pick an audience. Right? And so it's unfortunate. But, yeah, I truly, truly believe that there are no victims. There are only volunteers. And
and so
when we are talking about him or your ex or this or that, it is never in a condemning way. There are a lot of podcasts out there that are
angry
people that are you know, it's still blame shifting and all that and and absolutely not. I honor anyone who comes and listens. We definitely have men who listen to the podcast and, yeah, you gotta get past the pink branding, but yeah. Yeah. It it but it's it's alright. I've got a heck of I've got
my my coaching certification
through,
through Brooke's. Oh, Brooke Castillo. I love her. You know?
When I heard that on your podcast,
it really brought me back. When I created my first,
course, and I don't make courses anymore because we don't people don't complete courses and that didn't feel fulfilling or rewarding to me. Yeah. So that was, like, not aligned.
But, I listened to her podcast from the beginning. Right? She recommends you started her podcast episode 123,
and,
yeah, I used some of her content and some of my course creation. So,
love her. Yeah. Well, she's she's absolutely great. I, it kinda makes me sad. She's gotten to the level now where she's only that putting that out about once a month. So it's like,
yeah, she's but she's having fun. She's falling, falling,
Christian around,
around his golf game. So Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so it's it's fun to watch that and to and to just see how how things and I get to look forward to seeing how things change. So Yeah.
But but, yeah, she was
Brooke,
is fashioned towards women also. Yeah. But still, there's the as occasional dudes that pop up. So I love that. It's such an essential part of healing the fabric of of society and community. Right? It it takes all of us doing our part to open our hearts. Yeah.
So alright. Well, Don, I will go ahead, and I'll let you go. And, thanks again for, for coming on. And,
you've helped
the men who are listening out. You've helped them out tremendously. Well,